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> > Maccaffertium vicarium----VS----fuscum

Brookyman has attached these 7 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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BrookymanFebruary 3rd, 2013, 2:42 am
Banned
Posts: 797
I finally decided to do this post. It is a classic situation and I just happened to both these guy's. I may take a beating for this but this is also our history. The classic March brown and the Grey fox for comparison. I know that if I write this wrong my mentor will help me here. I will try to load these as 1 march brown 1 grey fox and so on.


These are both Maccaffertium vicarium formerly know as the classic
Stenonema vicarium. This situation gave the opportunity for us to all compare and see the differences with these two samples in one post and both being male duns made it perfect for this situation.


Everybody here can see one lighter one. Back in 1970's that cat was referred to as the grey fox or Stenonema fuscum. In the world of entomology they are very similar to each other. Actually true be known the color difference it the biggest difference for most of us here. As far as the little details go that help a specie concept or name status stay valid, they are way to alike, and they are both now referred to as M.vicarium. I only have a few pictures of the grey fox.

So this I believe can make a great conversation and I do hope we can all contribute to this post. We all have the history of these guys in common with each other, So don't just read, join in.


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
Jmd123February 3rd, 2013, 4:47 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2379
Mack, you are just a posting maniac! I can hardly keep up with you. Keep it up though, good stuff. Nice photos too!

Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
WbranchFebruary 3rd, 2013, 11:33 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2505
Brookyman wrote:

"Actually true be known the color difference it the biggest difference for most of us here."

Is the sole difference just color or is it also size as is defined in "Selective Trout" where the March Brown is at least one size larger than the Grey Fox? I know on the Delaware in NY/PA system the March Brown dun is best imitated with a #10 hook while the Grey Fox is more closely imitated with a #12 or a big #14.

There are far fewer Grey Fox than there are March Browns so the difference is really moot to me. I use a #10 Compara-dun for soft water and a thorax style for riffly water.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
BrookymanFebruary 3rd, 2013, 11:52 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Hi Jonathon

Thank you. The photos are hit and miss. I was still learning the camera. The ones I will hopefully get this spring should be really crisp with mega angles
including nymph association.

Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
BrookymanFebruary 4th, 2013, 12:26 am
Banned
Posts: 797
From what I am learning about all these bugs the range of variability is commonly quite high. There is a slight size difference of these two just barely 2 mm from my area. That little bit in size and the color are the big ticket of indifference. The finer details like penal spines wind veining patterns tergal marking is where they become virtually identical. It is the fine and un-obvious details that put them together. I would bet that if these two samples were the same in color very few people here could truly be sure which is which. From the biology stand point they are both vicarium.

One thing I would have said last year was, But The Eyes are green like fuscum in hatchs II. After reading a digging I ran across a paper by a work named Earle Lyman in the 1943. He did a study on the eye color changes of Stenonema mayflies. Turns out in bright light the eyes are paler in color density. In low light the samples collected at dusk or dark had very dark eyes.

Another thing that shows the range of variability is I have caught other vicariums that were both females everything matched but there was almost 3mm in size difference and they where both caught in the same hatch and riffle. And that is a whole hook size from # 12 to # 10.


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
OldredbarnFebruary 4th, 2013, 11:30 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Is the sole difference just color or is it also size as is defined in "Selective Trout" where the March Brown is at least one size larger than the Grey Fox? I know on the Delaware in NY/PA system the March Brown dun is best imitated with a #10 hook while the Grey Fox is more closely imitated with a #12 or a big #14.

There are far fewer Grey Fox than there are March Browns so the difference is really moot to me. I use a #10 Compara-dun for soft water and a thorax style for riffly water.


Matt...My wife, years ago, purchased a Dave Ruimveld print of the Au Sable for me...She had my fishing friend Bill tie the flies for a shadow box below the print...Bill has a March Brown & a Grey Fox in there...Hmmm?

Mack's discussion of variability and the "lumping" of what we thought were two bugs, doesn't trump stream experience and maybe the need for two different patterns to cover this "variability".

Spence

BTW...Bill is the same Bill Monahan that fished with Swisher & Richards back when they were working on Selective Trout and got a nod from them in the anniversary edition.

Wonderful photos Mack! They look like your pets...Almost posing for a picture...:)
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
CrepuscularFebruary 4th, 2013, 12:22 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Mack's discussion of variability and the "lumping" of what we thought were two bugs, doesn't trump stream experience and maybe the need for two different patterns to cover this "variability".


Exactly. How many "sulphur" patterns do you have in your box? This comparison is not about bugs, it's really about imitations. And then we are back to the old discussion about common names vs scientific names. In most fly angler's minds, history, size, color,profile and time of emergence are what dictate what the name of a particular bug is. In my opinion (albeit unsolicited), the taxonomy of the ephemeroptera is, in this case, a separate thing.
EntomanFebruary 4th, 2013, 7:35 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
How many "sulphur" patterns do you have in your box?

Hmmm... Without going into the tiny (and some not so tiny) baetids of the Centroptilum/Procloeon species (Tiny Sulfur Spurwings), I have 3 different sizes in as many as 6 different colors of "Sulfurs" in stock matching variations of E. excrucians/dorothea infrequens (PMD's) I have run into. And I'm not talking about subtle differences either. The most common are a hard to describe peach, but they also come in pale yellow, creamy orange, pale tannish pink, pale olivaceous yellow, and even bright yellowish green! Wings can vary from the palest creamy gray to a solid Med. dun, often with their body pigment in the basal costal region. Luckily, I have a pretty good idea which variety I'll see depending on locale so I don't have to lug them all around at the same time.:)

In my opinion (albeit unsolicited), the taxonomy of the ephemeroptera is, in this case, a separate thing.

I wholeheartedly agree. In fact I'll take it a step further and apply it across the board. Most of the time the only important thing is to recognize family membership so you will know something about the behavior of the critter you're trying to imitate. The rest is about matching it with a reasonable fake and fishing it properly. For a lot of us here, it's true to say interest in the hatches goes way beyond what's necessary for fishing success. Personally, I just find that the more I know about the critters trout have an interest in, the richer the experience is for me.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularFebruary 5th, 2013, 10:32 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
For a lot of us here, it's true to say interest in the hatches goes way beyond what's necessary for fishing success. Personally, I just find that the more I know about the critters trout have an interest in, the richer the experience is for me.


I resemble that remark!
GutcutterFebruary 5th, 2013, 10:36 am
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
... Most of the time the only important thing is to recognize family membership so you will know something about the behavior of the critter you're trying to imitate. The rest is about matching it with a reasonable fake and fishing it properly...


Bingo


In my opinion (albeit unsolicited), the taxonomy of the ephemeroptera is, in this case, a separate thing.


Eric, your opinion (albeit in my opinion) is never unsolicited. It is always welcome
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
OldredbarnFebruary 5th, 2013, 11:56 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
I have 3 different sizes in as many as 6 different colors of "Sulfurs" in stock matching variations of E. excrucians/dorothea infrequens (PMD's) I have run into. And I'm not talking about subtle differences either. The most common are a hard to describe peach, but they also come in pale yellow, creamy orange, pale tannish pink, pale olivaceous yellow, and even bright yellowish green!


One of these days, Vinny Marinaro and I are going to convince everyone that color may not be the most important "trigger"...One of these seasons I'm going to tie all my flies with the same color dubbing and just vary the size to match the hatch in progress...I'll just use emergers, duns, and spinners and put the dye manufactures out of business! ;)

Last night, at the tying clatch, someone made the joke often heard, that trout don't count...I had an old German Brown tell me one time, that eventhough their math skills aren't what they could be, "why count when there's a zillion bugs in my face during a hatch?", that what's really interesting is all the colors anglers angst over..."Those damn bugs on the surface are so backlit, and the glare up there is a bitch, I don't know why they bother...All I see is a silhouette, and with that damn Osprey sitting up there in the tree I don't have time to count or care what color the damn thing is anyway!"

All that was in an archaic german dialect...A very nearly dead language, so forgive me if I lost something in translation there.

;)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
OldredbarnFebruary 5th, 2013, 12:04 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Eric, your opinion (albeit in my opinion) is never unsolicited. It is always welcome


I'm not too sure about this Tony...Especially when I get those after midnight tweets with photos attached of a disheveled tying bench and a full pint of Guinness in the the background...:)

He's thinking too hard...

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
CrepuscularFebruary 5th, 2013, 12:30 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919

I'm not too sure about this Tony...Especially when I get those after midnight tweets with photos attached of a disheveled tying bench and a full pint of Guinness in the background...:)
Spence


I take exception at the "disheveled tying bench" crack! There was plenty of space for that pint!
OldredbarnFebruary 5th, 2013, 3:14 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
I take exception at the "disheveled tying bench" crack! There was plenty of space for that pint!


Ha! There were enough tying scraps floating in the foam head of that beer to tie a couple dozen...I was afraid you were testing your comparaduns in there and might forget and swallow one of them. :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
CrepuscularFebruary 5th, 2013, 7:46 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Just because I woke up at 4:00 am with hackle,foam,cdc and dubbing stuck to the side of my face doesn't mean I have a problem does it? ;)
EntomanFebruary 5th, 2013, 8:15 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
No, that's just a fly tier's facial. I've found it helps negate sun and windburn damage.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
FalsiflyFebruary 6th, 2013, 12:29 am
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 656
Just because I woke up at 4:00 am with hackle,foam,cdc and dubbing stuck to the side of my face doesn't mean I have a problem does it? ;)

Asking that question here is like sitting at a bar and asking the alcoholic next to you if he thinks you have a drinking problem.

Not long ago I was sitting at my local watering hole and decided that I had had enough. For some of us itís hard to leave the bar before closing time without an excuse so I explained to my good friend the bartender, and all those within earshot, that I was restoring a nine foot bamboo fly rod, and I was. I was in the process of applying a boiled linseed oil finish. Anyway, I announced that I had to get home and oil my rod. Well, the place immediately erupted in uncontrollable laughter to which it took me a second to realize my pun. That doesnít mean I have a problem does it?
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
CrepuscularFebruary 6th, 2013, 9:45 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Absolutely not!
BrookymanFebruary 6th, 2013, 1:31 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Wow this is making for a big conversation.

A short Poem I just wrote as I read this tread.


Stenonema on the stream has and will always be the greatest of dreams, while I sit it out, till the hatch, looking for the Stenonema I scratch my back. As the flight begins I look and see the Stenonema or March Brown leaving the scene. I pick my cane with one hand, my silkined line has come to a mend. I toss and I toss it out in front of me to continue to watch the March Browns flee. Just as I thought my luck had come to pass, a little purple brookie took the last cast. So as you read you likely agreed that the word Stenonema should and will always be.



Mack. The Stenonema Rangers of Ontario. Feb 6th 2013
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
OldredbarnFebruary 6th, 2013, 4:22 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Brookyman...I'm afraid that the Stenonema ship has sailed my friend. I realize you are attached to the Stenonema Rangers moniker, but one Stenonema femoratum doth not an army make!

How about Maccaffertium Marchers?

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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