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> > Why Caddisflies Flies can exit the surface so quickly, Page 3

CrepuscularNovember 25th, 2015, 7:39 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
You can surely tell when the fishing season has wound down to nothing and we are all sitting at the computer kind of bored and willing to the debate minutiae of air bubbles, gas bubbles, and why certain bugs rise to the surface faster than others.



I don't know about you but I've had pretty good dry fly fishing this week and last.
WiflyfisherNovember 25th, 2015, 8:41 am
Wisconsin

Posts: 603
There is way too much speculation from the wrong observation view point - above the water, including from me. I am not going to put on scuba gear but I might try something like this next season... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B7YDJY2/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ps_2?pf_rd_p=1944687662&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00KUM68NQ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0YZ7HSQG7GFVM247GZFW



Has anyone tried something like this?
John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
EntomanNovember 25th, 2015, 12:57 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Not to burst anybody's "bubble", but there is an "indisputable" fact about the speed of caddis hatching that hasn't been mentioned. Caddis emergences are slower! Compared to mayflies, caddis have a much better approach to avoiding trout predation from the individual's standpoint. Their much longer terrestrial existence affords them the ability to trickle of during emergence and build their adult populations over time. Mayfly emergence really grabs the trout's attention but survival is assured by the weight of their sheer numbers. The trout can't eat them all. Caddis count on indifference. It is rare for caddis emergence to cause selective feeding. Are there exceptions? Of course. For example, the first week or so of Grannom activity on streams where their populations are super abundant and the adult populations haven't built up. Usually though, they just trickle off and are in the drift with everything else, rarely composing a large percentage of the available eats. Once the adult populations have built up, it is better to focus on them when fish are at the surface.

There is another common scenario, though. Let's say you're on the river one summer evening and the caddis are everywhere and the trout are really working. No other hatch is in evidence. Using whatever method you secure a sample and tie on the appropriate dry. After a dozen casts, maybe no action or perhaps a half hearted rise or two. Next you tie on a pupa with similar results. A soft hackle or similar diving adult imitation goes on next. Sometimes this is the answer, sometimes not. Tonight it isn't. What's going on? Is it the way I'm fishing the fly? Is it some important feature in the appearance of the natural I'm failing to match? The answer is usually no. Why?

A closer look at The situation reveals that while there is no other (apparent) hatch going on and the caddis are everywhere, the actual drift contains a cornucopia of food items. From spent spinners, terrestrials, mayfly nymphs, midge larvae and pupae, etc., to the occasional caddis, it's a real smorgasbord.

In other words, the fish don't care! They are feeding ravenously because it's time to, not because of a focused response to any one food item. They may only be rising to one out of every 10th morsel on the menu in random fashion. In this situation it's best to try and get their attention, hopefully in a positive way. Sometimes it works, but usually only for a few. It's rare in these situations to ever stumble across a magic elixir that fills the creel.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
WbranchNovember 25th, 2015, 5:03 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2498
I don't know about you but I've had pretty good dry fly fishing this week and last.


Since I've chosen not to fish any PA waters after May 15 my dry fly season on the Delaware usually ends around October 15. I start getting all geared up about steelhead the third week in September and am anxious to get up to Erie. Because it is conceivable there could be early frosts on the West Branch of the Delaware and my cabin is only seasonable because my water and waste pipes are above grade I usually have to winterize it once I feel there might be a frost.

You are right there are probably lots of guys still trout fishing in central PA. It is just not my cup of tea.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
GutcutterNovember 25th, 2015, 8:41 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
Caddis count on indifference.

Awesome.
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
MartinlfNovember 25th, 2015, 11:00 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2902
There is another common scenario, though. Let's say you're on the river one summer evening and the caddis are everywhere and the trout are really working. No other hatch is in evidence. Using whatever method you secure a sample and tie on the appropriate dry. After a dozen casts, maybe no action or perhaps a half hearted rise or two. Next you tie on a pupa with similar results. A soft hackle or similar diving adult imitation goes on next. Sometimes this is the answer, sometimes not. Tonight it isn't. What's going on? Is it the way I'm fishing the fly? Is it some important feature in the appearance of the natural I'm failing to match? The answer is usually no. Why?

A closer look at The situation reveals that while there is no other (apparent) hatch going on and the caddis are everywhere, the actual drift contains a cornucopia of food items. From spent spinners, terrestrials, mayfly nymphs, midge larvae and pupae, etc., to the occasional caddis, it's a real smorgasbord.

In other words, the fish don't care! They are feeding ravenously because it's time to, not because of a focused response to any one food item. They may only be rising to one out of every 10th morsel on the menu in random fashion. In this situation it's best to try and get their attention, hopefully in a positive way. Sometimes it works, but usually only for a few. It's rare in these situations to ever stumble across a magic elixir that fills the creel.


Well-said, including that only slightly mixed metaphor at the end.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
ByhaughNovember 26th, 2015, 1:56 am
Hawaii

Posts: 56
Well written, but not my general experience.
I have found trout to usually key on a particular hatching insect....even if there is a complex hatch underway.
OldredbarnNovember 26th, 2015, 9:31 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
A closer look at The situation reveals that while there is no other (apparent) hatch going on and the caddis are everywhere, the actual drift contains a cornucopia of food items. From spent spinners, terrestrials, mayfly nymphs, midge larvae and pupae, etc., to the occasional caddis, it's a real smorgasbord.

In other words, the fish don't care! They are feeding ravenously because it's time to, not because of a focused response to any one food item. They may only be rising to one out of every 10th morsel on the menu in random fashion.


"The actual drift contains a cornucopia of food items..." Welcome back Mr. Ento-Man! :)

Byhaugh...Check out Bob Wyatt's, "What Trout Want: The Educated Trout and Other Myths". It may cure you of your caddis angst. Leaving Hawaii for a cold, clear, Montana stream might also help.

Question for today: How is my buddy Bruce (Feather5, henscape, etc)like an old Brown trout? He is known to seldom pass on a meal. :)

Speaking of meals. Happy Thanksgiving Troutnuts!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
ByhaughNovember 26th, 2015, 11:37 pm
Hawaii

Posts: 56
Sorry, don't get it. I have no angst toward caddis. I love them and actually probably fish them more than mayflies. And, the Madison and Henry's Fork is where I fish the.
TaxonNovember 27th, 2015, 1:46 am
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1294
Byron-

You have thus far received over two pages of mostly serious attempts, either to respond to your original post, or to respond to one of your responses. However, at some point when faced with a multitude of opinions, one needs to simply decide which (if any) of them make the most sense, or so it seems to me. :-)
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
CtgeneNovember 27th, 2015, 7:44 am
connecticut

Posts: 9
60 degrees today in Ct., could be too warm for a good BWO hatch but I will go and find out. There is a nice Dolophilodes caddis hatch in the A.M.. this caddis runs across the surface and wings are developed on land. The proper presentation is a slowly dragging fly across the surface. Every bug mayfly or caddis has its idiosyncrasies, the more you know about each helps in the long run. By the way the BWO's are a size 28-32, 8x and my 3 weight.

Gene
OldredbarnNovember 27th, 2015, 12:00 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Sorry, don't get it. I have no angst toward caddis. I love them and actually probably fish them more than mayflies. And, the Madison and Henry's Fork is where I fish the.


I don't mean to be flip...It seems to me that, yes, we know a great deal about the aquatic bugs we imitate, but it is far from a complete science.

Creno (Dave Ruiter) is considered one of the more informed entomologists in the country when it comes to caddis. He is one of the "real" entomologists that visit this site from time-to-time. Even he seemed to steer away from your question...Absolutes are hard to come by...:)

We just have to make due with what we know and keep striving for a better understanding...I guess its part of our quest...We jam all this useless information in our brains all our lives and just before we expire we have either figured it out or we haven't. :)

Spence

...and in terms of Mr LaFontaine...He was a wonderful part of our angling legacy, but to believe something because Gary said it is so, is not good science...Doubt should be where we all start, IMHO, and we claw our way towards the next thesis...only to have that challenged as well...and so-on-and-so-forth...Turning these guys into some sort of high priest of fly fishing is, in a way, a dead end street...All knowledge ends with them...and unless it's Charlie Fox, or Vince Marinaro we shouldn't do that...;)

I hope you understand that I'm incapable of removing my tongue from my cheek. Roger is right, when a thread seems to have run its course they call old Spence in to change the subject...

I have tossed a zillion and one flies in my life and from time-to-time I have convinced myself that I was on to something, only to have that pea-brained trout humble me again. :)

That's why we calls it fishin', eh?! :)

Tightlines!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
WbranchNovember 27th, 2015, 4:51 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2498
Spence wrote;

I have tossed a zillion and one flies in my life and from time-to-time I have convinced myself that I was on to something, only to have that pea-brained trout humble me again. :)


I have one fly that while not guaranteed to convince every trout 100% of the time but it has been very effective on the western river I fish where it has fooled at least a dozen 22", half a dozen 23", three 24" and literally hundreds of 17"- 19" wild fish. Louis is aware of it but is sworn to secrecy. When I become too old to wade anymore or too feeble to get into the drift boat I will tell all.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
EntomanNovember 28th, 2015, 10:21 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Byhaugh -

I think you missed my point. My bad for not being more clear. I wasn't contradicting anything said but rather adding to the conversation by playing with the concept of speed and also bringing in another common occurrence for consideration when fishing during caddis activity. Anyway, I want to thank you for your contributions to the forum. Starting this very good thread is a fine example.

Louis -

Ah, you are right! I didn't catch it in my haste and you are being kind in saying "slightly" as it was rather blatant... But at least the imagery wasn't confusing, so would you give me a passing grade if a begged? :)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
MartinlfNovember 29th, 2015, 12:08 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2902
Kurt, you get an A+ on this site, which is dedicated to angling knowledge. I just have to tease my buddies from time to time, but frankly don't care about the p's and q's in general conversation.

Matt, your secret's safe with me. :)
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
ByhaughNovember 29th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Hawaii

Posts: 56
Thanks to all for their varying opinions on the subject. I wish I lived near a variety of streams. I would time hatching Caddis on the water and hatching mayflies on the water. May do so next summer when in the Yellowstone area.
OldredbarnNovember 29th, 2015, 9:31 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
I have one fly that while not guaranteed to convince every trout 100% of the time but it has been very effective on the western river I fish where it has fooled at least a dozen 22", half a dozen 23", three 24" and literally hundreds of 17"- 19" wild fish. Louis is aware of it but is sworn to secrecy. When I become too old to wade anymore or too feeble to get into the drift boat I will tell all.


Matt...You tease! :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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