Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > Questions on casting, Page 3

EntomanOctober 19th, 2013, 2:50 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
No problem, Spence. Needed to grab a sandwich & cup o' Joe anyway.:)

Carl -

Getting back to your original post - your tackle is grossly mismatched. You are casting the equivalant of a light 11 wt line (AFTMA scale) on that little trout rod of yours. As mentioned earlier, Spey lines are categorized by an entirely different system. Not only are their heads much heavier - the running line behind the heads is even more so. If you had 40 ft of line out on a false cast (fairly typical when attempting distance), you may have had as much as 400 grains in the air! You're lucky that rod didn't blow up like a firecracker. Get yourself a Teeny T130, a SA express 150 gr., or even a 5 wt. full sinker for your lake fishing. Once you've established good casting mechanics, you should be able to reach 70 - 80 feet with such a rig.

As far as casting goes, I'm afraid more information than necessary has been supplied you in this thread. Like a good golf swing, a good casting stroke is best learned properly from the beginning. Bad habits once established are very difficult to unlearn. One of the benefits of the rapid expansion of the sport in the last 20 years is the ready availability of excellent casting instruction. Seek out a certified instructor for lessons. For the price of a cheap rod, you'll come away with something far more valuable. After that, learning to place the fly where you want it in field conditions (as well as controlling its drift) will come with practice. You'll undoubtedly develop your own approaches along the way. It's all great fun!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
StokesOctober 19th, 2013, 9:07 am
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
Thanks,Kurt.I did get that switch line off the 5wt somewhere halfway thru this thread.I originally got it because I was watching some videos on one handed spey casting.So when I saw a 5wt switch line at orvis,I gave it a shot.Only used it a couple of times,and altho the line went out well,it did feel like the rod was gonna snap off at the butt.So much for blindly ordering on-line.Had I gone into a shop,I would think a salesman would have set me straight.Fortunately I had been concentrating on the small creeks so the 5wt sat unused mostly.Yes,there has been a lot of info supplied in this thread,but I wouldnt consider it "more than neccessary".A lot of it is stuff I've known already,mostly by trial and error,but it is a big help to confirm that I'm in the right direction.I am quite impressed with the willingness and enthusiasm people here give help and opinions.Its almost winter and I am sure I will have many more questions.As I said earlier,altho I got my first fly rod in the mid '90's this is the first year I got away from the lake and found the streams to be so much more challenging.
PaulRobertsOctober 20th, 2013, 4:35 am
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Boy! We are rolling now. :)

At the end of page one of this thread is a link I posted in response to a question about the so-called "Belgium Style" of casting...Did everyone miss that one? It is one that shouldn't be skipped over, IMHO. I thought I was really stirring the pile with that one and no one even blinked...And what about Charlie Ritz, and why is Kurt hiding in the bushes on this one? :)

I can't cause any more problems unless you bite on the first one...:) Humor me!

...Ok...A few years back I was having a discussion with Joe Humphreys...If you haven't watched any of his casting vids, look him up. Those of you who have seen them know that he fishes in some very tight spots in them. I told him about a place, like the one Carl mentions above, where I cast basically inside a tunnel of trees and overhanging growth. I asked him what rod he was using and if I remember him correctly...He likes longer rods, longer than what we are talking about here, and a 4wt or higher...Now he does use some of the casts mentioned above in these tight places like the bow and arrow, etc...

Charlie Ritz has a wonderful discussion on using the non rod hand to speed up the line...He always uses this hand to hold the line and get everything rolling...I had to borrow the book, since it is out of print, but if you ever see it pick it up.

My wife is wanting to push me out the door...It is a beautiful day and I'm wasting it here chatting with you all...Ciao! Check out that link I was talking about.

Spence

Well, I read the article, and its good. I agree with his explanations. Don't see any waves being caused there though. Sorry I can't humor you, Spence.

Joe Humphrey's GOTO rod has been a 7-1/2ft 6wt Fenwick HMG. He did use long rods on small waters on occasion but this was specialized use mostly -tiny waters he couldn't approach closely. His choice of 6wt is probably a surprise to many, but it makes enormous sense in terms of rock solid efficiency. It can simply boss its way around in ways that daintier lines can't. Joe is a darn good caster and angler, employing a bull in a China shop approach. It's effective bc he knows just when and how to apply that bullishness. Reminds me of how long it took me in my bass fishing to leave the UL, finesse, even medium gear and realize how much more efficient "heavy" gear is.

I agree that line speed is an advantage in terms of keeping it in the air, esp on the backcast, and that it is key to really long casting, but I think hauling is apt to exacerbate control issues for many casters. I think the biggest problem new FFers have is not appreciating how much fine control rules the game. It takes time to gain it, and time to realize how critical it is in terms of fishing success.

Kurt, it's interesting that some of your points in various threads seem to contradict mine, but many of those can be explained by the fact that we tend to fish different waters. I believe you spend more time in large waters throwing in open spaces. I'm slithering like an eel or bucking brush more often than not. A couple such points:

-Once my line is on the water I rarely have to worry about it putting fish down. It's when its in the air that counts, and I've found a dark died line to be a godsend.

-Also, my elbow is rarely at my side when casting either, but I do purposely employ that for certain reasons: When I need to get very precise in placement, I may keep my rod hand right close to my eye, say to nail an inches wide lane. I'm just more consistent that way, when it really matters. I also tend to keep my elbow close when "tuck" casting which I employ a lot when nymphing in small broken spaces. In tuck casting one HAS to have instant control of that tippet weight and fly. They have to hit the lane just so or you are lost. The slightest cowtail and you just educated another fish, and never knew it.

Ability of the Caster - "It's not the tool, its the mechanic" type of thing. One angler can cast circles around another angler regardless of the rod/line set up. If you can cast, you can cast.

I agree. But ... and this may raise some hackles bc it has in the past... Some rods and line weights are better suited to fishing than others. I think one can do more with enough line mass and a relatively powerful rod in terms of fishing (not just "casting") compared to a softer weaker rig; granting that there are places for slow actions and for light lines. But for knock down drag out fishing, power is ... power.

Eric, a 5'6" 3! I bet that is a crisp little rocket. It has POWER, yes?
OldredbarnOctober 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Paul,

Just trying to keep this going. I think it is an important thread. Casting, to me, is the bottom line with our hobby. There is a learning curve and it does take some effort and practice. Some folk get to a level of skill and stop there...Then, it seems, they rationalize why they don't need to go to the next level.

I agree Kurt, I over-loaded this with some esoteric stuff that only concerns Mr. Lore. :) Just trying to school em. ;)Before all the hear-say and bad recollection of our history finds its way in to fact. The collective consciousness can get muddled.

Paul...I was being lazy a bit with the Humphrey's section of my post. I needed to go to my journal instead of relying on the old memory. I remember there was a counter-intuitive aspect of it and it was the 6wt on a shorter rod...Not an easy combo to find, but he has connections. :) You and I have talked before about rods with a little back bone when you call on it...

Carl...Check out Borger's, "Presentations"...The focus is on casting there.

Eric...Congrats for the Boys from Boston...Don't know where the high priced bats went...How about posting those two mayflies you showed me.

Spence



"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
TaxonOctober 20th, 2013, 12:55 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1291
How about posting those two mayflies you showed me.


Posting mayflies, yes indeed!
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
EntomanOctober 20th, 2013, 2:29 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Kurt, it's interesting that some of your points in various threads seem to contradict mine, but many of those can be explained by the fact that we tend to fish different waters. I believe you spend more time in large waters throwing in open...

Thanks for pointing this out, Paul. I should have mentioned the whys for the differences in approach. You're right, small water in the West usually presents different challenges. On our intimate waters the biggest problems are mostly brushy banks and riparian alders and willows you want to keep your fly above. Trees are something to cast around, not usually under. It's the rare creek that has a low hanging canopy of deciduous tree branches. This also means that fly lines are most often silhouetted by sky. Severe elevation changes and big open spaces almost always mean some air movement as well. Short rods and super light, dark lines are severe handicaps in these combined conditions. I have found a 9 ft. 4wt using a 5 line and a short 7-8 ft. leader optimal for conventional gear.

Frankly, my current favorite for intimate rivers and creeks is a 12 ft. Tenkara rod. I've landed some amazing fish with it as long as they have nowhere to go.;) Drift control and stealth with this tackle have to be experienced to be believed. Those tricky little back eddies on the other side of strong current (where the really nice fish always seem to hold court) become easy. However, contrary to the hype coming from some of the method's proponents, it is NOT tackle for water where a decent fish (15" plus) has room to exercise its shoulders.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanOctober 20th, 2013, 2:45 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Spence-

I agree Kurt, I over-loaded this with some esoteric stuff that only concerns Mr. Lore. :) Just trying to school em. ;)Before all the hear-say and bad recollection of our history finds its way in to fact. The collective consciousness can get muddled.

Wasn't referring to Mr. Lore's correction of the record. You know how I feel about that. Keep on keepin' on, buddy!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
PaulRobertsOctober 20th, 2013, 7:25 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Spence-

I agree Kurt, I over-loaded this with some esoteric stuff that only concerns Mr. Lore. :) Just trying to school em. ;)Before all the hear-say and bad recollection of our history finds its way in to fact. The collective consciousness can get muddled.

Wasn't referring to Mr. Lore's correction of the record. You know how I feel about that. Keep on keepin' on, buddy!

Yes, definitely. The "lore" puts perspective on our own place in things, and is just plain interesting knowing who the pioneers were before us -nice to know our roots. (But it's also a kind of bummer to know we're almost never on virgin ground. Oh well.) My reaction was bc while you were being Mr Lore I was being "Mr. Nuts & Bolts".

Ah, and another caveat to my POWER rampage: It's also an artifact of my penchant for small turbulent cover-choked waters.

I did find a short rod advantageous on the Delaware however at times, and ended up packing one along bc I found my rod tip in motion could put fish down under certain places and lighting, the short rod keeping my profile lower. It of course was not an all around advantage bc long rods keep more line out of trouble on the water. But on certain fish on turbulent banks that required a close approach a short rod kept me out of sight.
OldredbarnOctober 22nd, 2013, 12:23 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Maybe we should let one of the ledgends have the last word in this thread...Maybe another nod to Lore:

The statement that "a vital part of fly fishing is fly casting" is not even debatable. One would expect to see on the streams, lakes, and ponds, casters in approximate numbers who are good, bad, and indifferent; but amazingly there are mighty few of each of the two extremes and a vast army of the mediocre. It must be that Mr.Average Angler is so involved with habits, environment, approach and equipment that he postpones the day when he makes a science out of delivery. Probably a stylist, such as Ted Williams, starts his serious effort at the other end of the line, then faces problems in a methodical take-them-as-they-come approach. It has been noted that this is the psychology of the trap shooter turned angler. Isn't it foolish, though, not to make an honest attempt to cast up to the ceiling of one's ability, particularly if there exists a genuine love of the sport in its entirety?


p. 45-46 "This Wonderful World of Trout" Charles K Fox

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
StokesOctober 22nd, 2013, 6:21 pm
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
"Isn't it foolish, though, not to make an honest attempt to cast up to the ceiling of one's ability, particularly if there exists a genuine love of the sport in its entirety?"
that last line made that book number one on my list for this winters read.thanks for title/author,oldredbarn.
StokesNovember 25th, 2013, 11:25 am
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
Just wanted to tell you guys I found a link at R.L.Winston Rods to a 10 part video series from Joan Wulff.The way she explains the basic mechanics and breaks them down is truly amazing.Although I still cant handle a rod without the use of my left hand,I know after watching her vids my casting will take a huge leap.I get the pins out of my hand 2nd week of December and I will be out on the grass casting my a$$ off.
OldredbarnNovember 25th, 2013, 11:08 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Carl,

Thanks for passing this on. Good basic stuff from one of the best. She was quite the cutie in her early days. :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Feathers5November 26th, 2013, 9:41 am
Posts: 287Casting is over-rated, fish nymphs.
FalsiflyNovember 26th, 2013, 1:55 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 656
Iíve seen a countless number of fly fishermen practice their casting on the water. They had to be practicing their casting because they werenít catching any fish.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
Kschaefer3November 26th, 2013, 2:08 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
Iíve seen a countless number of fly fishermen practice their casting on the water. They had to be practicing their casting because they werenít catching any fish.

It just might have been me a few times :)
OldredbarnNovember 26th, 2013, 3:13 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Casting is over-rated, fish nymphs.


Bruce...I think its about time for you to sell me all your fly fishing gear and you can go out and get a spinning rig. :)

Happy Turkey Day, by-the-way!

Iíve seen a countless number of fly fishermen practice their casting on the water. They had to be practicing their casting because they werenít catching any fish.


I practise on the water as well, when I'm not trying to undo my leader from the Tag Alder I forgot was behind me. :)


Spence

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
FalsiflyNovember 26th, 2013, 3:53 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 656
Kschaefer3
Ponder this: The next time you find yourself casting and not catching fish just remember that you are practicing your casting. It is a fact that those who practice their casting the most catch more fish, for with each practiced cast the chance of catching a fish increases. Once you have reached the pinnacle of practiced casting and start catching fish on every cast, like me, you are no longer practicing your casting but have advanced to practicing catching fish. However, be warned, once you start practicing catching fish it becomes boring and you may find yourself once again practicing your casting. Most practicers (sic) of casting often change flies in hope of becoming practicers of catching fish. I, on the other hand, change flies to relieve the boredom of practicing catching fish so that I once again can revel in the quiet, relaxed, serenity of practicing my casting.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
PaulRobertsNovember 26th, 2013, 7:27 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Casting is over-rated, fish nymphs.

Bruce...I think its about time for you to sell me all your fly fishing gear and you can go out and get a spinning rig. :)

Hmmmm.... If your nymphing isn't ever casting intensive, then you are either missing a lot of fish or bypassing a lot of water.

And...I love my spinning rigs.
Kschaefer3November 27th, 2013, 11:51 am
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
Kschaefer3
Ponder this: The next time you find yourself casting and not catching fish just remember that you are practicing your casting. It is a fact that those who practice their casting the most catch more fish, for with each practiced cast the chance of catching a fish increases. Once you have reached the pinnacle of practiced casting and start catching fish on every cast, like me, you are no longer practicing your casting but have advanced to practicing catching fish. However, be warned, once you start practicing catching fish it becomes boring and you may find yourself once again practicing your casting. Most practicers (sic) of casting often change flies in hope of becoming practicers of catching fish. I, on the other hand, change flies to relieve the boredom of practicing catching fish so that I once again can revel in the quiet, relaxed, serenity of practicing my casting.

This is great! Maybe you can teach me to catch fish on every cast? That way I can switch it up from only practicing while I'm out there.
Jmd123December 3rd, 2013, 8:26 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2368
"Practice makes perfect." At least that's what I've told all of my girlfriends...

;oD

A belated Happy Thanksgiving to all! I turned 50, that's right, half-Century mark, on the Wednesday before the holiday, and my dear old Dad gave me a S&W stainless .44 Magnum. Good thing, I've been hearing stories of black bears spotted on my hiking trails recently (last few months, none very recent, it's getting too cold). So, probably a little protection is in order...

Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Page:1234

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: A good rod for small stream fishing (Tenkara?)
In General Discussion by Music321
1Jun 4, 2013
by Brookyman
Re: Lefty Kreh TFO Finesse & Tim Rajeff Echo2 fly rods
In Gear Talk by Cdcaddis18
2Jul 5, 2009
by Pdq5oh
Re: New to fly fishing
In General Discussion by Jlkoutdoors
4Jul 11, 2016
by Gilsau
Re: General Questions & Fly Lines
In Gear Talk by Drifter21
10Mar 29, 2015
by PaulRoberts
Re: small-stream line types...
In Gear Talk by Roguerat
6Dec 18, 2012
by Risenfly
Re: General Questions
In Gear Talk by TedderX
3May 23, 2016
by CaseyP
Re: over- or under-lining?
In General Discussion by Irishangler
2Dec 12, 2014
by Martinlf
Re: Orvis rods
In Gear Talk by Wbranch
5Dec 22, 2014
by Nickyfins
Re: Streamer rod for lakes
In Gear Talk by Barbaube
4Feb 12, 2019
by Jawyellowba
underlining Loomis Whisper Creek
In Gear Talk by Halperin
0
Most Recent Posts
Re: Fly Tying Vise
In Gear Talk by William99 (Wbranch replied)
Re: Caddis on a zig zag
In General Discussion by TDMunro (Partsman replied)
Re: Rhyacophila betteni group
In Rhyacophila Caddisfly Larva by Creno
Re: This appears to be Dixa sp.
In Dixa True Fly Larva by Creno (Jmd123 replied)
Re: The boys were back in town, Chapter 4 part II
In the Photography Board by Jmd123
Re: The boys were back in town, Chapter 4: new digs, new waters, new fish!
In the Photography Board by Jmd123
Psocodea
In Psocodea Insect Adult by Creno
Rhyacophila hyalinata group
In Rhyacophila vocala Caddisfly Larva by Creno
Re: Don't think it is Gumaga........
In Lepidostoma Little Brown Sedge Larva by Creno (Troutnut replied)
New Instagram account
In Site Updates by Troutnut