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StokesOctober 10th, 2013, 4:54 pm
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
How long a cast should I expect from my rods?I have a 6ft 2wt Orvis Clearwater with 2wt WF-F Orvis Superfine line and an older 8 1/2 ft 5wt with a 300gr 5wt WF_F Orvis switch line.With the 2wt I can get about 30ft of line (not counting leader),comfortably.Havent found the need for longer casts with this on small streams,but when I practice on grass,should I look for more?Right now,if I go for more it collapses on me.Is it my timing,or am I asking too much of such a short rod?
On my 5wt I get about 50ft.I sometimes look for more when fishing my lake,and wonder how I can attain longer casts.Also,is it possible that the 300gr is "overloading" the rod.It seems to cast okay,but feels very heavy.Thanks in advance for any pointers.
Kschaefer3October 10th, 2013, 5:00 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
300 gr is pretty hefty for a 5 wt. I throw a 150 gr sinking line on my 5 wt. Switch line weights do no correspond with a single hand rod. Can't speak to the 2 wt as I've never cast one, but 50 ft seems pretty good on a 5 wt? How long have you been fly casting? I'm sure many on here can toss 80-100 ft on their 5 wts, but they have also been fly casting for 10, 20, 30, even 50+ years.
AfishinadoOctober 11th, 2013, 7:47 am
SE PA

Posts: 67
There is a lot of confusion out there concerning a switch rods and spey rod line weights. The weight of the line for switches and speys does not correspond with single hand lines. A 5 weight switch rod handles a MUCH heavier line than a SH rod

The standard grain weight line for a 5wt rod is 140g!

I would not use that line on the rod! It will be severely overloaded.

Here is a link to a chart for SH rod line weights:

http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/12/14/fly-line-wt-grain-chart/#axzz2hPedBA4w
Al514October 11th, 2013, 8:38 am
Central New York

Posts: 142
@Stokes....I would agree with Kschaefer3 that the 300GR is too heavy. A 5wt GR window according to AFTMA is 140GR (+/- 10 GR) at 30'. So if a fly line company doens't overweight their fly lines (Cortland), a 5wt line that can pass QC can be between 130GR - 150GR at 30'....which should be perfect for a 5wt rod. However, for lines that are overweighted (like RIO, Teeny), it is a different story. At 30', a RIO 5wt is other line manufactures 6wt in most cases. Check out the GN listings on RIO's websits.

Take that 300GR switch line and throw it on a 9 or 10 WT for Pike / Musky. Especially if it is a Skagit Style head...that will turn over big flies no problem. I use a 325GR Switch line for throwing bass poppers on an 8wt...it's a dream to fish!

I would recommend learning how to haul. Start with single hauling, then work your way up to double hauling. This (along with specialized liens) is how the competition guys throw 120+ feet. I would also recommend casting as much as possible.

Your distance will only be consistently long if your line taper and casting stroke allow for both. Throwing a 30' head 90+ feet is much harder than throwing a 50' or 60' head 90+ feet. If all you're looking for is distance, get the right rod and line taper for it. If you're looking for a line and rod to perform in a wide variety of situations, I would keep trying lines until you get what you're comfortable with because everyone is different.

I think one of the requirements to be a Fly Casting Instructor is casting 80 feet?

Hope this helps!
Al514October 11th, 2013, 8:48 am
Central New York

Posts: 142
@Stokes....I'll add that 30ft on a 2WT is pretty good. Like you mentioned, the scenarios when you'll need more from a 2wt are pretty slim....when you do need more distance you'll probably be grabbing a different rod.
StokesOctober 11th, 2013, 9:44 am
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
Thanks for all the replies.I had a feeling that 5wt line was way too heavy,a little research before I bought it would have answered that,oh well.I only used it twice since I got it.It really felt like the rod was loading up at the handle.
Cant seem to get the hang of hauling.I've looked at some videos on the matter,but I havent got it,yet.Guess I gotta keep at it.
Kschaefer3October 11th, 2013, 11:40 am
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
Yes, do keep at it. You will get there eventually. I say skip the hauling for the time being. Try to time your cast out first. Watch your fore and back casts and try to feel the rod load. Once you have that down, hauling will come more naturally.
OldredbarnOctober 11th, 2013, 1:59 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2587
Yes, do keep at it. You will get there eventually. I say skip the hauling for the time being. Try to time your cast out first. Watch your fore and back casts and try to feel the rod load. Once you have that down, hauling will come more naturally.


IMHO...Good advice there Kyle. No need putting the cart before the horse.

Right now,if I go for more it collapses on me.Is it my timing,


The simple answer here is yes. It is your timing...Each rod has its own character and demands in terms of your casting stroke. Some are fast, some are slow. Some rods are buggy whips and others stiff as a board. You have to adapt your casting to each rod's individuality. Now when you add in weight forward vs say a double-taper, or if you are adding lines like sink tips etc...Well...This changes everything again and you have to find out what works best in each situation.

When your line collapses this can be caused by the caster trying to over power the cast...It sounds counter-intuitive, but by trying too hard you screw with the timing and dilute some of the power in the cast.

My advice...For what its worth...Take the 5wt and buy a cheap double taper for your practise sessions...Use an old fly or piece of yarn on the terminal end. Forget the 2wt for now...Get a simple casting book or take a lession at a shop and work on each step until you have it mastered.

You have to walk before you can run and now is the time to not pick up some bad habits. Take your time and put in the time and you will improve...Then when you pick up the two weight again you will think you bought a new rod. :)

Hauling has its place if you are fishing for Stripers off the east coast with Eric, or with Tony down off the Keys, but for most situations a simple single haul to speed up your line off the water is all you will need...

You might find a local club...There is always someone there that fancies themselves the casting pro (not always the case, but), maybe they can help by watching what you are doing and give you some pointers. My club has their meetings at a local middle school and we have access to their gym. We have "club rods" and anyone in the club can walk down to the gym and work on their casting. We even have a new members school once a year and folks new to the sport get personal attention from us gray beards.

A controlled, strong, straight cast...a few reach mends...ability to mend line on the water to extend your float, and abilty to roll cast...will catch you more trout now than being able to double haul and shoot a whole fly line. All in good time grasshopper! ;)

Spence

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Kschaefer3October 11th, 2013, 3:22 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
All sage advice, from a sage gray beard. :)


When your line collapses this can be caused by the caster trying to over power the cast...It sounds counter-intuitive, but by trying too hard you screw with the timing and dilute some of the power in the cast.


I want to stress this point. My casting came into it's own throwing sinking lines on a 10 wt for musky (I'm still mediocre at best). I could only cast the setup when I felt as though I wasn't trying at all. After the light bulb finally went on, my idea on casting was, and still is, to be lazy. Not with your form, but feel like you aren't trying to throw the line far. That is to say, let the rod do the work. On days when I am struggling (casting, meding, catching) I tend to get anxious when casting and speed up my stroke. I always have to tell myself to slow down and be lazy. You are fishing after all, it shouldn't be work :)
StokesOctober 11th, 2013, 8:49 pm
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
Kschaefer,I think that is exactly my problem-speeding up,trying to rush and overpowering the stroke.I often find I do one too many false cast strokes,I have a real good forward stroke and try to get one more thinking it will get more distance but realize I should have let it land on the last forward.
I replaced the line on the 5wt and took it out on the lake today,much better,so much more comfortable casting.Glad I saved the last line I had on it.
Al514October 12th, 2013, 7:44 am
Central New York

Posts: 142
Good advice in this thread!

I just want to throw in....I remember reading somewhere that casting can work up to be 80% of your success in fly fishing, so it is worth the attention...even if you're an experienced angler.

I would say every time I get out I'm adjusting some element of my casting for the conditions, situations, or to just try something new.
SayfuOctober 12th, 2013, 9:38 am
Posts: 560Just a summary from this casting instructor for many a year. I was the Sage Rod Co's first casting instructor. There are lots of great info out there on casting, and u-tube like video instruction. There is the basic casting technique, and then there are specialty fly fishing, presentation casts....like the "Oval cast", or Belgium Cast that I would not leave home without it twer I throwing streamers like you say you tie. Just recently I took my brother down the Henry's Fork of the Snake, and he threw streamers, and caught two nice rainbows, BUT.......twice he whacked his rod tip with his heavy wt'd streamer! I found one of the streamers on the floor of my boat. I taught him the Belgium cast, and off we went. Spey lines? You have to cast them to see if they load your rod. Tis the nature of those lines.
WbranchOctober 12th, 2013, 9:23 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2482
Sayfu wrote;

"or Belgium Cast that I would not leave home without"

I have fly fished for over fifty years and 95% of my casting is executed with the Belgium Cast. I never have had a casting lesson in all my years of fly fishing and was unaware of even the name "Belgium Cast" until a friend, who is an excellent fly fisher, told me that my style of casting was called the "Belgium Cast". It has worked well for me and while I am 95% of the time a dry fly fisher the other 5% I thrown quite large streamers and that method of casting keeps those big hooks away from my body and the chance of getting impaled with a #2 - #1/0 hook.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
WbranchOctober 12th, 2013, 9:33 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2482
Stokes wrote;

"I often find I do one too many false cast strokes"

I think that one of the biggest mistakes many new, and often not so new, fly fishers make is in making far too many false casts. Sometimes it just drives me crazy to watch a guy false cast 6, 7, even 10 times before the guy executes the final forward cast. In all seriousness there is really no functional reason to false cast more than once or twice and then lay that line down on the water. If you hone casting skills it is easy to throw 40' - 50' with no more than two false casts.

The only reason one might false cast over and over is if you see a rising fish and you are trying to time your cast to match the rising frequency of that fish. Then I can understand why someone might false cast repeatedly, not to lengthen the cast distance, but to wait to see the rising frequency and to drop the fly at the point when you think the trout is about ready to rise again.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
TNEALOctober 13th, 2013, 1:00 pm
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN

Posts: 275
Wears out the arm and the fly.
SayfuOctober 14th, 2013, 10:03 am
Posts: 560One reason anglers make so many false casts is their mechanics are not sound. The back cast is completed too far back/low, and they are trying to gather the line/timing/rhythm of the cast. I remember anxiously asking the local steelhead, fly fishing guru the question early on, "how many false casts do you make before laying out your final cast? He said, "no more than two", and I challenged myself to do it. 50 ft. casts, or better were the norm, and I'd strip in to where I could make a roll cast then the pickup, and out would shoot the line. And to get into that rhythm, and perform the casts time after time flawlessly as you step down through the run is an enjoyable pleasure in itself.
StokesOctober 14th, 2013, 11:03 pm
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
Dont usually make more than 3 or 4 false casts,feeding out line,but it seems I'll have in my mind "one more" and them I can feel the rod load perfectly on the forward,but instead of letting it fall,because I'm already focused on one more I pull it back and I lose it.Someone mentioned "putting the 2 wt down and concentrate on the 5 wt,but I do like fishing the smaller creeks and I have gotten pretty accurate with it.It is a very different animal,being a 6ft rod,it is more wrist action than actually using the whole forearm stroke.
OldredbarnOctober 15th, 2013, 8:42 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2587
I think that Matt would agree with me when it comes to false casts...You can't catch a fish with the fly in the air or in the tag alder behind you, it has to be on the water. With all that swinging around of rod and fly line you are likely to spook a good old-wise trout. If anything scares a trout, its something flying over its head...Thats where their predators come from, Osprey, Eagles, Kingfishers, Loons, Mergansers, etc, etc.

Stokes...Not sure I agree with your last sentence...The mechanics of the cast don't change much between rod lengths, but the casting stroke might, i.e. speed/length. A limp wrist may give you a limp cast, it may drain some of the energy from your cast.

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
StokesOctober 16th, 2013, 1:37 am
Columbia county,NY

Posts: 76
"Stokes...Not sure I agree with your last sentence...The mechanics of the cast don't change much between rod lengths, but the casting stroke might, i.e. speed/length. A limp wrist may give you a limp cast, it may drain some of the energy from your cast."
Not a matter of "agreeing" with anything,when I throw a kind of sidearm with the 6ft rod,I get much tighter loops,the rod seems to load much better,with faster line speed,loops are 8-12" or so and the line goes straight to the target.I wouldnt describe it as "limp wristed",its not all wrist,there is less arm motion and a kind of snap of the wrist,more so than I would with my longer 3wt and 5wt rods.
On another note,what is this "belgium cast" that was mentioned earlier by sayfu?
OldredbarnOctober 16th, 2013, 2:16 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2587
http://www.g-feuerstein.com/en/Elliptical_Fly_Casting.html

Read this and get back to us...:)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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