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> > On the Origins of Stimulators and Origins in General, Page 2
| Entoman | October 30th, 2011, 4:01 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Matt - Yes to all you wrote. I think Bergman also discusses the fly as well, if I remember right. Tim - Spence is right. The hooks were applied for a patent in 1931 that was granted three years later. William Brush was an Auto engineer from Detroit. The hooks are really only a returned eye hook with the end bent up. They were extremely heavy up front and the post was slippery so the idea never took off. He is credited with inventing the parachute, but I think the claim is dubious. Upright calftail-winged Coachman derivatives had been in use on the West Coast long before Lee Wulff came along with his ideas, but so the story goes. History is not about who-did-what-when first, it's about what's documented about who-did-what-when first. Perhaps somebody will open up a chest in some attic and find a little pamphlet showing parachutes, hair-wing dryflies and such pre-dating anything we currently have. Let's just hope they don't throw it away.:) The only evidence I'm aware of regarding wrapping the hackle around the wing post comes from Swisher/Richards in the late '60's. Perhaps somebody else can add to the the how's and when's they came by it, but it is an elegant solution and they are the first practical parachute patterns I'm aware of in print. Bob Quigley, of Fall River fame, took them to a whole other level though. Sayfu - I don't know the booklet you are referring to, but perhaps the tier was labeling the variation as his own, not the design concept or "pattern" per se. Any tier who claims the "invention" of down-wing dry flies tied with ungulate hair is just ignorant of the history of our sport. This holds true for Al Troth's Elk-hair as well and he never made such a claim. What is unique is his variation. The truth is Western fly tiers had been designing and tying down-wing dry flies with ungulate hair long before any of the tiers to whom they are often mistakenly attributed. As to who did so first, it's one of those mysteries for which we will probably never have the true answer. You might find it interesting that many historians credit the design invention to your neck of the woods, Sayfu. Back before the First World War, a couple of anglers in honer of Idaho rancher Alfred Trude came up with the famous calf tail design. There is also mention of the use of "deer hair" variants to fish some of the Willow fly (golden stone) hatches from that era. I do know that the once-popular Caddis Bucktail (actually tied with deer body hair) was a popular palmered fly well before Al Troth came along. It was an old fly when it was one of my favorites to use on the McCloud as a pre-teen. Unfortunately, that was quite a few years ago... :) Many attribute the Caddis Bucktail to Polly Rosborough (probably because he has the pattern in his book), but it pre-dates him as well and he never claims credit for its origination as he does for his "Fuzzy Nymph" designs. Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| TNEAL | October 30th, 2011, 4:11 pm | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | Hackle wrapped around the post was in use many years before the 60's here in Northern Michigan. The Roberts Drake is one good example. I fished it as a kid and it had been in existence for some time before that. | |
| Entoman | October 30th, 2011, 4:21 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Tim - See? There you go. Who knows how far back it goes... Sounds like it's probably a Michigan contribution though. I should add in fairness that to my knowledge Swisher/Richards never claimed the idea was original to them. Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Sayfu | October 31st, 2011, 9:10 am | |
| Posts: 560 | After fishing elbow to elbow with steelheaders for a number of years, I can sure understand how a flies origin can be misrepresented. Every method, and material used was first fished by the folks I was around on the banks of the Snoqualmie River in WA St. And Al Troth's ribbed hackle, and hackle that appears to be too long is unacceptable to me. Al probably didn't have the shorter, genetic hackle when he designed his elk-haired fly. Wonder if that reverse ribbing of palmered hackle was his original design? (starting the palmering from the thorax) Or am I now thinking of the original PT nymph!!? And if it was, would that make it his original. I watched Andre' Puyans tie that fly, and ribbed it with just the use of his hands, no vice...and then he died soon after. And now that I think of it a little clearer!...Andre' tied the original Sawyer, PT nymph reverse ribbed...I think. | |
| Entoman | November 1st, 2011, 12:05 am | |
Posts: 2604 | SayfuWonder if that reverse ribbing of palmered hackle was his original design?Though I don't doubt he might have come by it independently, I would be surprised if some Englishman didn't do it first a long time ago. Palmered flies go back a long ways. Or am I now thinking of the original PT nymph!!? I doubt it. The original PT Nymph was the creation of Frank Sawyer, another Englishman. It didn't have any hackle. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Sayfu | November 1st, 2011, 9:05 am | |
| Posts: 560 | Entomen..NO, I realize that, but I think I may have watched Andre' Puyans tie the original Sawyer PT nymph, and reverse wire rib the pheasant tail fibers to strengthen the body starting by wrapping the PT fibers from the eye end back, and then reverse wrapping the wire forward. I think that was the way Sawyer tied the original. | |
| Oldredbarn | November 1st, 2011, 9:42 am | |
 Posts: 2608 | Sayfu, Believe it or not, there is a YouTube that exists of Mr Sawyer actually tying his famous imitation. There are no words to it and it is in black & white, but it makes you think about what else may be out there stored on old Super 8 film that if it were transferred to a new medium, we might not all benefit from. Check it out. Spence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=416Os9V84n8 | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | November 1st, 2011, 3:40 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Hi Sayfu - I guess I misunderstood you. Sorry about that. I thought you were still talking about hackles. As to the Puyans version of the PT - It was tied in the style of his famous A.P. series (wing-case fibers pulled back and trimmed to form legs) using all pheasant tail instead of beaver fur and moose hair. He was a funny guy with a dry sense of humor at times. He wasn't a fan of flies with personal names attached and when somebody would call him on the A.P. Nymphs he would reply with a straight face and a twinkle in his eye, "So you think my name is All Purpose"? I never saw him tie a Sawyer PT, or heard him discuss it's construction, so I can't comment on what his approach would have been. Perhaps you saw him do a Sawyer PT demo at somebody's request. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Entoman | November 1st, 2011, 3:56 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Spence - Nice video link! Shows some of the steps he used that are left a little hanging from the instructions in his book. It looks like he just crosses the wire underneath to go from front to back of the wing case instead of winding it. as far as treasures, I'd love to see the old "Gaddabout Gaddis" and "American Sportsmen" shows (before they got into hang gliding and kayaking). | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Oldredbarn | November 3rd, 2011, 10:20 am | |
Posts: 2608 | as far as treasures, I'd love to see the old "Gaddabout Gaddis" and "American Sportsmen" shows (before they got into hang gliding and kayaking). Kurt, You and Tony have quotes at the bottom of your posts from Voelker. Charles Krault (sp?) had one of the episodes of his "On the Road with Charles Krault" that stopped at Frenchmen's Pond in the UP and visited with the old man...That would be fun to see again! I have seen that whole series on DVD for sale, and it was a wonderful show, but I really would like to see that one again. The summer before Rusty Gates passed away they took him there to visit and fish...Sort of a TroutNut's/adult version of "Make a Wish"...John V had passed in 1991 and unfortunately that seems like just yesterday instead of 20+ years ago...Damn! Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | November 3rd, 2011, 1:48 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Yeah! I remember... Didn't he go see some famous bamboo rod builder too? | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Stimmy | November 30th, 2011, 12:24 pm | |
 Posts: 1 | Ahhh... Andre "Andy" Puyans. I can't hear that name without getting a little teary eyed, not because we lost such a great talent, but because of all the times we spent tying, talking, imbibing and laughing and knowing they're over. About Andy and the Sawyer's PT Nymph- I was fortunate enough to have him show it to me about a dozen times between when I was 17 and 50, every time joshing him that "I can't remember how you did xyz..." followed by him chiding me and saying "This is the LAST time I'm going to show you this". The actual last time was in 2002, 3 years before he passed. Andy learned how to tie this fly at a very young age. When he was a child, he contracted polio and was hospitalized for quite a stretch and during that time, he honed his tying skills. He was tying the Saywer style PT Nymphs because all they required were hooks, pheasant tails and wire. I recall him telling me that someone (a doctor, I believe) saw his tying and put him in touch with a tackle shop owner. Following that, Andy received an order to tie the Saywers he had been working on... an order for 144 DOZEN!! If I recall the story correctly- he was 9 or 10 years old at the time. =) My first meeting with Andy was in 1972 when he opened Creative Sports... a tiny shop in Contra Costa County. I recall the shop had two previous locations to where it is now - one on Contra Costa Blvd and the one I remember best, on Boulevard Circle in WC... a little hole in the wall between Hwy 24 and 680. I went in on a Saturday morning and there was a 'tying circle' going on, not a formal class, just some guys sitting around tying and learning how to tie flies. And there was this one burly guy with a long bushy black beard that had a constant circle of pipe smoke wafting around his head who had a lot of eyes on him. He didn't say a lot, but when he spoke you could tell everybody was listening... because they stopped tying to hear what he had to say. Some of it was technique, some of it was about selecting material, some of it about fishing and every now and then he just threw out a 'barb' to give someone at the table a hard time. I snooped around the shop, selected a few things, watched over tyer's shoulders and eventually went up to the counter to check out. Andy came up, and said "so, what're you gonna do with this stuff?" as he rung me out and I told him I had a few flies I had been working on and had been tying to get ready for the season opener. He said "why don't you pull up a chair and show me"... and the rest is history. His style was simple- mostly natural materials, always a "less is more" approach but he was fascinated with some of the stuff others came up with. He would never throw cold water on a pattern anyone developed, but he could look at a fly and suggest improvements to the materials or methods used to tie it, or almost immediately tell you what pattern had been around forever it imitated... dashing any hopes that it was something new =) Andy's beard grayed over time (like mine has now) but his knowledge and skills remained razor sharp forever. I had asked him once if I could take a video of him tying the Sawyer's - undoubtedly my favorite fly to watch him tie, but he declinedf (I do believe however there MAY BE a video of this on a Sportsman's Expo Tying Theatre tape). He tied this fly so effortlessly that you'd kind of get swept up in watching how simple he made it look and you'd miss the little nuances, like the way the wire was bent, or how it changed hands, or how and why certain tail fibers were selected to tie it with and the coup de grace, how he worked the wire to sort of "soften it" before he tied the two-turn whip finish. I finally took the time to write notes when someone else asked him to show them how to tie it and I posted the recipe and a photo of one of mine here http://www.danica.com/flytier/lmedina/sawyer_pt_nymph.htm This one is legless like the original Sawyer's, but Andy generally tied his to include legs, similar to the All-Purpose (AP) Nymphs. I sure miss him- I doubt there will ever be anyone like Andy again... may you rest in peace, my dear friend. | |
| Stimmy ...no wisecracks, It's a FLY! Tying since the Thompson A and Champion Silk thread | ||
| Oldredbarn | November 30th, 2011, 4:15 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Larry, Welcome aboard! Very nice story and thanks for sharing...My fishing partner calls me Mr. Lore and I eat these reflections up! :) I love Hans' web site. It is incredible how quickly things have changed and no doubt will continue to change due to new technologies. My fishing buddy used to tie commercially with his Thompson A and finally caved and bought a fancified Thompson the HMH...He likes to play dumb around my Dyna-King like he can't figure out how "this new fangled thing works"...:) Thanks again...I have to run...I tutor today and I'm late. Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | November 30th, 2011, 5:17 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Hi Larry, Welcome to the forum, Nice to hear from another CA angler! It's a testament to the wide net Andy threw that he could have such profound influence on so many. I don't believe we've met (that I'm aware of anyway) but we probably passed each other many times in his Walnut Creek shop back in the Seventies? I bought my first really fine fly rod from him. Following his advise, I worked most of a summer to buy a Leonard 38 for fishing the spring creeks I love so much. I don't fish the rod much anymore, but it can't come out of its case without thoughts turning to him. He was the most meticulous fly tier I ever met, but not in a fidgety or fussy way. Would you agree that the best way to describe him at the vice was graceful? I loved to watch him dub his muskrat AP. Best technique ever - tight and durable, yet fuzzy (no need to scrub it to look buggy). His loop-wings? Simply gorgeous... The man could tie anything - his steelhead flies were works of art. Andy's sense of proportion was unequaled, IMHO. His was the biggest influence on my tying. Though I didn't see him much the last 15 years or more before his death, I still miss him as well. Since you spent some time with him in later years, what did he think of all the beads and shiny plastic so prevalent today? Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
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