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Kinzua has attached these 3 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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little lady
little lady
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little lady_2
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boy friend
boy friend
KinzuaOctober 5th, 2009, 3:52 pm
W. PA

Posts: 20
Does anyone know the name of this little girl? Found in western PA yesterday, 10/4. Body size ~4mm. Also included a picture of her friend.
SofthackleOctober 6th, 2009, 7:29 am
Site Editor
Wellsville, NY

Posts: 540
Not really sure, so I'll guess in the Heptagenia family. When did you find them, and what were the area's water characteristics?

Mark
"I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt

Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html
GONZOOctober 6th, 2009, 8:31 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Kinzua,

These are baetids, but it's difficult to say much beyond that.
SofthackleOctober 6th, 2009, 8:41 am
Site Editor
Wellsville, NY

Posts: 540
Thanks, Gonzo, from me too!

Mark
"I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt

Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html
KinzuaOctober 6th, 2009, 3:23 pm
W. PA

Posts: 20
Gonzo,
Thanks, I suspected baetis, but haven't seen one of this yellowish color. Although a #24, the fish were eating them. Other than a few mystacides, this was the only other bug on the menu.

John
GONZOOctober 6th, 2009, 8:16 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Sorry, John, I seem to have created a bit of confusion with the term "baetid." That's a family identification--a member of the family Baetidae. I rather doubt that these are Baetis (the genus). Although I can't confidently suggest a genus-level ID, they might be something in Centroptilum or Procloeon. Many of the species in those genera have yellowish or yellowish white bodies with somewhat similar markings. Some of the Centroptilum or Procloeon males also have a low profile or elliptical shape to their turbinate eyes, similar to your male specimen.

Because most fly fishers tend to use terms like "BWOs" or "olives" when referring to any of the little members of the Baetidae, we often get the impression that most baetids have olive bodies. Many baetids have yellowish, yellowish orange, or brownish bodies. A few of the common trout stream species, like Baetis tricaudatus or Acentrella turbida, do tend to have olive or olive-brown bodies. These are often pictured in fly-fishing books, and that further contributes to our impressions about color (and identification).

In the case of baetid spinners, the male body colors are sometimes quite different than the female body colors. Many male spinners in this family (including some common Baetis species) have translucent whitish abdomens with brownish tips--what fly fishers sometimes call the "Jenny spinner" coloration.

I hope that helps. Baetidae is a very difficult and confusing family-- for fly fishers and entomologists alike. :)
JADOctober 7th, 2009, 5:17 am
Alexandria Pa

Posts: 362
That's what I like ,ask a question and get a complete answer. Well done Lloyd,that's probably why Louis is smarter than me (He hangs around with you)

We old guys call that fly ,A summer Sulphur---or to go even further back to the Chauncy Lively days the Lemon and gray.

:) John

They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cockís wattles, and which in colour are like wax.
Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
GONZOOctober 7th, 2009, 9:35 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
You're too modest, John (JAD). When he's not in a teasing mood, Louis would be the first to say how much he has learned from fishing with you. Summer Sulphur is a better name for John's (Kinzua's) little lady than BWO, but I am partial to Little Lemon and Gray. And you already know how much I admired Chauncy Lively.
MartinlfOctober 7th, 2009, 12:59 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2977
Gonzo's right. Most of the benefit of fishing with John has gone to me, in ways too numerous to count. But I have learned so much from Lloyd too. Between the two of them, they may make a fisherman of me yet. I'm headed up to the J. very soon, to continue my lessons. I just hope John's there, and the fish are rising.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
FlyfishdeltOctober 7th, 2009, 1:29 pm
Raleigh

Posts: 1
Thanks for the question and answers, I spent some time up in Jefferson, NC the last week of Sept/09. These ladies were everywhere and I had no idea what they were.(no mathing pattern either)
Steve
KinzuaOctober 7th, 2009, 4:04 pm
W. PA

Posts: 20
JAD,
Way back when, I looked forward to the monthly Chauncy Lively fly tying article in the PA Angler magazine. He was a very innovative tyer and excellent writer. Did he do one on the Little Lemon and Gray? I wish whoever (PFBC?) has the rights to his articles would publish them all in a book - I'd buy two.

Gonzo,
I'll have to keep an eye out for the spinners.

John
JADOctober 7th, 2009, 4:56 pm
Alexandria Pa

Posts: 362
Ah what fun I just had, I was smart enough to cut Mr Lively articles out and past them together when I was younger.I can't find a article about the lemon and gray from Chauncy but I did find one from Mr Bob Miller who IMHO is a very close second. In case your interested the lemon and gray pattern calls for a 24 hook with Griz tail and hackle.

Sorry I think I hijacked the thread that's not like Me :) I got carried AWAY-----

Sing along with me.

Thanks for the memories

JAD

They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cockís wattles, and which in colour are like wax.
Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
GONZOOctober 7th, 2009, 6:46 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
John and John,

I, too, have a small collection of Chauncy's old articles, and I wish I had them all. Whenever I look at them, they take me back to a time when I would flip through the pages of the PA Angler in eager anticipation of Chauncy's latest offering. I was never disappointed and was always inspired to try to tie such flies. In some ways, those articles are even more impressive today. I'm struck by how much of our recent fly-tying innovation has merely been catching up to where Chauncy was more than 40 years ago.

A while back, there was a book called, I believe, Chauncy Lively's Flybox. I haven't read it, preferring the direct memories evoked by the original articles, but it might be worth tracking down.

OldredbarnOctober 8th, 2009, 7:05 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
GONZO,

I have an autographed copy of, "Chauncy Lively's Flybox". It is well worth trying to find. I had the chance to chat with him in the late 90's at the Angler's of the Au Sable's tenth anniversary that was held in Gaylord MI. He had a cottage on the North Breanch of the Au Sable. He seemed like a really nice guy and willing to share with you his ideas. He seemed interested in your conversation and curious about your observations...I can't remember what we actually spoke about...Maybe I have it tucked away in a fishing journal somewhere.

It was kind of like the time I was in Boston in 1975 with a friend and we went to a Tennessee Williams play and he was in the audience. I waited out in the lobby to try to speak with him and he walked a few feet away and I couldn't come up with something to say...He just walked by.

In Chauncy's book he has a unique process for tying on spinner wings. It may be in one of those articles you have of his. He tied on a knotted/looped piece of mono and wrapped the hackle parachute style below this knot. He would then pull the loop down over the wrapped hackle and it would form two separate wings on either side of the shank. You would have to see it and in his book he has step by step photos.

I think that the book has long been out of print and I also think it was a small publisher as well. I'm at the office and don't have it handy, but if you are interested just shoot me an email and I'll get you the info. In Michigan fly shops in the early 90's it was available and I remember seeing it around. There is a photo sequence for each fly and a page long article about the fly.

I actually thought, at one time, that I had lost my copy. I couldn't find it for awhile and tried to buy it again up around Grayling but couldn't find it. I was hassling some of my fishing friends to check and re-check to see if I had lent it to them. Turns out that I had put it in a box when we moved to a new house. These boxes were stacked in the basement and when I got around to finishing the basement I emptied these boxes and found it.

Us Michigan guys...Au Sable river guys...are rather fond of the "Pennsylvania Boys". Just between you and I, he-he, we love to hassle the Ohioians & those from Chicago that fish the Au Sable, but if we know a guy is from Pennsylvania and we run in to him up there, we are trying to pick his brain or get him to go fishing with us.

A few years back I ran in to a group of guys at Gates' Au Sable Lodge at breakfast that were from PA. I had walked in and all the tables were taken and sat myself down at the end of a long table. These guys walked in and were looking around for a place to sit and I told them to join me. We hit it off and I told them of a few places they should check out and ran in to them one night in one of my favorite spots. After dark we met up at the parking area and they shared some PA beers with me and we shot-the-shit about the old guard (Chauncey, Marinaro, Fox, etc...)and they told me a little about the fishery back home.

These guys had read about the river in, I think, that Eastern fly fishing mag and decided on a road trip. They had done their research and fit right in up there. Serious anglers.

Anyway!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
OldredbarnOctober 8th, 2009, 7:19 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
Oops! I forgot to add...we like the Pennsylvania Boys here in Michigan except for "Syd the Kid" and the hockey team in Pittsburgh! He's actually a Canuck anyway...My second obsession is the ice hockey, eh! The "Oldredbarn" tag is a reference to the Olympia Stadium that use to stand in Detroit on Grand River when I was younger...It was the house that Gordie Howe built. I also saw Tommy Hearns' first two pro fights in there in the late 70's..."I grow old, I grow old...I will wear my trousers rolled and walk upon the beach"....etc, etc.

Just wanted to clear this up.

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
GONZOOctober 8th, 2009, 4:55 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Thanks, Spence, for your remembrance of a childhood fly-tying hero, the kind words about "those Pennsylvania boys," and the Eliot.

"...Time to turn back and descend the stair,
with a bald spot in the middle of my hair...."
LastchanceOctober 8th, 2009, 5:09 pm
Portage, PA

Posts: 437
I'm very happy this post was made because I saw the same fly about a week ago and couldn't identify it. So, is it suffice to call it a yellowish BWO?
Bruce

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