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Fly Tying

> Downsizing hook for more realistic profile?

Roguerat	November 14th, 2015, 8:45 am
Posts: 472	Spence's comments on how slender a natural is vs. dubbed imitations (Baetisca aside!) has me wondering IF. Say I'm tying a sz 12 Iso pattern on a std dry-fly hook, using 6/0 thread; would downsizing to a sz 14 1XF 3XL hook, 8/0 thread, and paying attention to dubbing buildup yield more realistic results? Would the hook-gap be sufficient, would it bend out, lots of IF stuff on my mind. I know presentation plays a part regardless of a fly's appearance but I still wonder. I checked this site for posts or threads on hook size and all but couldn't find anything. Roguerat 'Less is more...' Ludwig Mies Vande Rohe
Catskilljon	November 14th, 2015, 2:37 pm
Upstate NY Posts: 160	The idea of tying larger imitations on "smaller" hooks is valid for a few reasons. I tye my Iso's and March browns on 2X long hooks, usually one or 2 sizes smaller than "normal". A spring Iso is huge, at least they are in the Catskills and the March browns are almost as big. To tye an imitation the same size would require at least a #10 standard shank dry fly hook and possible an #8. By using a longer shank, smaller gape hook, you not only gain the floating benefits of a lighter diameter wire but since the bend is 40% of the weight on a standard hook, the smaller gape decreases the weight too. You don't want to take this too far though, like tying the same fly on a #16 6X long hook as the benefits, while good on the floating side are greatly reduced on the hooking and landing a fish side. Long shanks and light wire is a poor combo when fish get over 17". Ask me how I know! CJ
Martinlf	November 14th, 2015, 3:25 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	I tie larger dry patterns on 2XL hooks, mostly for the reasons CJ notes regarding weight and flotation. But in regards to refusals, at least for most fish, the hook doesn't appear to matter, otherwise we'd never catch a fish. It may for some, though. The owner of a local fly shop told me about getting multiple refusals with fish in a popular catch and release stream. So he cut the hook off and immediately started getting hits. I fish a few flies, mostly caddis, that are tied upside down, with the hook buried in a CDC wing, never to penetrate the meniscus or be seen by a fish. They seem to work well at times on fish that seem picky. Note, I say "seem." I think we exercise a good bit of of interpretation, and precious little scientific experimental design, in terms of evaluating how well things work in regard to our flies, especially our pet inventions. Also, as CJ notes, hooking and landing properties of hooks are significantly important to consider. I'm very fond of Tiemco 921's for small flies. The short shank provides a larger gap relative to the fly size. They are a bit heavy, but flies tied with them seem to float relatively well due to the small size. And they hook and hold exceptionally well. I've never had a bigger fish bend one.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Roguerat	November 14th, 2015, 4:36 pm
Posts: 472	This is good to know, and I plan on downsizing some of my dries this coming winter- I see a lot of time at the vise ahead, but that's good. MI Iso's and March Browns are pretty much the same, 10's and 12's and some of the bigger flies I tye; Hexes and the bigger drakes are in a different class altogether but I see XL hooks working for these as well. The Tiemco 921 is interesting in that it's 1X fine but 2X short, I need to look for these. Which begs a whole 'nother topic on circle hooks and how they would work for flies...? Roguerat
Oldredbarn	November 14th, 2015, 6:44 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Rogue, That mind of yours is always running isn't it?! :) Good stuff! Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

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