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> Martian trout

Troutnut	June 10th, 2007, 9:16 am
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	There's a cool new article in New Scientist containing photos which seem to show liquid water on the surface of Mars. Although the article didn't mention this, I'm sure the question on everybody's mind at NASA is, "are there trout?" Let's hope so. I wonder what fly casting would be like in reduced gravity and an extremely thin atmosphere. Would the Orvis Zero Gravity rod be helpful? This could certainly redefine the "flyout trip."
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Shawnny3	June 10th, 2007, 4:50 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	I recently read another article about massive global warming on Mars (no doubt prompting Al Gore to begin writing the script for An Inconvenient Truth II). Alas, our infatuation with fossil fuels may well kill the cool Martian streams long before we ever make our first manned visit at the behest of that great space explorer, George W. Bush. Whether there are trout or not, it would be a vast improvement over hitting a silly golf ball if one of our astronauts executes a respectable double-haul of 300 yards. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
Flyfisher06	June 10th, 2007, 5:04 pm
argyle ny near saratoga Posts: 48	Hey Shawn doyou have any pictures of those Martian trout and how hard do they fight and how wily are they Todd
	IF I am not flyfishing or bird hunting I must be doing something bad like working !!
Konchu	June 10th, 2007, 7:52 pm
Site Editor Indiana Posts: 505	Not sure flyfishing will catch on for humans vacationing on Mars. space suit + fish hook = bad news for earthling
GONZO	June 10th, 2007, 8:39 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	You're all too late. I hear that Donnie Beaver has already leased all the liquid water and is ready to book trips to the Red Planet Spring Ridge Club! Club membership is reported to be only slightly more expensive than the round-trip spaceflight. (A bit of an inside joke for Pennsylvanians.)
Shawnny3	June 11th, 2007, 8:17 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Maybe this will open up a bit of Spruce Creek for the rest of us... or not. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
GONZO	June 11th, 2007, 11:01 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Yeah, I'd happily concede all Martian fly fishing to the guy if he'd just leave PA alone. Could we get a fund together to send him there permanently? But just to give the devil his due, I also think that some of the feverish interest in fishing "his" section of Spruce would evaporate if Beaver's big stocked fish disappeared along with him.
Flyfisher06	June 11th, 2007, 6:22 pm
argyle ny near saratoga Posts: 48	Im a former pennsyltuckian myslf i used to live in northern bradford county for 16 years but I was very amateur ranked in flyfishing then so please brief me on your inside jokes
	IF I am not flyfishing or bird hunting I must be doing something bad like working !!
LittleJ	June 11th, 2007, 7:12 pm
Hollidaysburg Pa Posts: 251	Fly fisher06, spring ridge club is a very, very , very, very (I think you get my point) expensive private fishing club, where the ring leader "the donald" uses the money to buy up vast amounts of formerly public ground to stock with steroid fed mush back trout, some rumored to rival the great white. Any way as you can imagine this has led to much criticism. And Donny Beaver has taken the brunt of many jokes. Gonzo, I couldn't agree more and frankly I don't see what the fuss is about, last fall I caught a 22" rainbow in the harvey project just above his water and the fish gave up before the fight even started. I've had 10" brooks fight harder. As far as I'm concerned they can have the stockies. Jeff
GONZO	June 11th, 2007, 8:05 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Sorry, Todd, I really shouldn't be interjecting PA fishing politics here, but I'll try to give you a quick dispassionate(?) summary. The aforementioned operation, the Spring Ridge Club...oh heck, let me quote the man himself: "For 30 years we have worked with landowners to open up access to private stretches along blue-ribbon trout streams in Central PA. We've been fortunate to build relationships with dozens of property owners and today we enjoy access to more than 14 miles on Spruce, Penns, Yellow, Elk, Pine, Little J & others." "Open up" means lease for the exclusive use of extremely well-heeled club members. "Private stretches" means that someone owns the land, but in some cases public access was allowed before the lease, and in others, the public was allowed to fish for a (rather modest) daily fee. In at least one case, local anglers worked for years to restore a piece of wild trout water, only to have the SRC step in and lease it. In the most famous instance involving the Little J, the club posted a section of the river that the courts later decided they had no right to close. (The Little J was recently ruled "navigable," meaning basically that the state has historical rights to the river as a public thoroughfare, no matter who owns the adjacent land or how that land changes hands.) As I understand it, members post a phenomenally expensive up-front bond of sorts in order to be admitted (to keep out the riffraff, I suppose) in addition to the yearly club fees. The club stocks huge numbers of truly enormous trout (many in the 4-8 lb. range) into what are often small wild trout waters. It is incredibly easy fishing for lazy anglers. Famous fly fishers and photographers often use these spots to get magazine cover "hero" shots with big fish, and the "Fly-Fishing Masters" competition uses them to "test" the skills of competitive fly fishers. Needless to say, there is no love lost between many Central PA "public" water anglers and the SRC. There have also been disturbing instances of political cronyism that caused ordinary anglers to lose their representation and voice on the fish commission for many years. If you're interested, I can give you the membership info. Are you rich? ;) PS--If I knew what was good for me, I probably would have put this in a private message.
Troutnut	June 11th, 2007, 8:56 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	PS--If I knew what was good for me, I probably would have put this in a private message. Nah, it's good to bring national public attention to this sort of nonsense. I doubt you'll find very many people here who take the club's side and are willing to admit it.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
GONZO	June 11th, 2007, 9:07 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Geez, Jason, that "national public attention" comment makes me even more nervous. And here I thought I was just chatting informally with some PA pals! ;) (Just kidding.) Seriously, I had a conversation a while back with one of the commissioner nominees whose appointment was held up by one of DB's legislative buddies. That nominee is a very dedicated conservationist and fly fisher, but he was amazingly reticent about saying anything that might be overheard, even though I already knew his views on the subject. Fortunately, his appointment finally went through. Perhaps he'll speak more freely now. (Or perhaps not.)
Troutnut	June 11th, 2007, 9:13 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Well, the "national public attention" you get here will probably be 10 or 15 guys, but at least a couple will be outside PA. Odds are at least one will be outside the country, so you've drawn international attention. ;)
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
GONZO	June 11th, 2007, 9:25 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Yeah, thanks for that. At least when I open my big mouth I do it to a small (but international) audience. :)
Martinlf	June 11th, 2007, 10:30 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Flyfisher06, I thought my wife was the only one who called it Pennsyltuckey. She's from Hastings, up Altoona way. Me . . . I'm just a redneck originally from Tennessee. How's the fishing near Argyle?
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Flyfisher06	June 12th, 2007, 7:46 pm
argyle ny near saratoga Posts: 48	first off I want to wish you guys good luck in your struggle down in pennsyltucky as I understood it you could own the land bordering water in Pa but all "I mean all the water is public" I could be wrong though so good luck as far as fishing up here by Argyle it is enjoyable mostly 10inch stockies but they do put in some 2 year olds and we get alot of carryovers due to light fishing pressure not many people fish for trout up here and the Battenkill is fairly wide and I guess runs about 15 miles from Vt line to its runoff point in the Hudson river I guess I like it because it is scenic,quiet and peaceful come on up and join me sometime todd
	IF I am not flyfishing or bird hunting I must be doing something bad like working !!
GONZO	June 12th, 2007, 10:05 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Todd, Unfortunately, your understanding of land/water ownership here in PA is not correct. I wish it was. I'm not a lawyer (thankfully), but laws concerning public rights to access on PA's waterways are quite murky, and only the courts seem able to resolve things (with considerable difficulty). Unless a stream or river has been ruled "navigable," a landowner who owns property on both sides of a stream or river can post it and exclude anglers. Whether they actually "own" the land under the water is another question, but unless that is contested on grounds of navigability, they can pretty much do what they want. There is no list of navigable waters because navigability is not as simple as it sounds. It really has little to do with providing passage for boats. Some of this traces back to "Crown" grants before the US was the US, but mostly it has to do with established historical patterns of commerce and travel. If it can be shown that a river or stream was historically and consistently used as a route of travel, commerce, and industry, then navigability may be established. But this happens on a case-by-case, piecemeal basis. On some major waterways, like the Susquehanna and Delaware, the status is pretty obvious to all concerned. On many smaller waterways, a landowner can get away with posting until someone contests it in court and is granted a favorable ruling. Two trout streams that were posted by private clubs have recently brought this issue to the forefront here in PA. The first didn't receive nearly as much attention as the second. Posting by the Lehigh Flyfishers on the Lehigh River below Stoddartsville Falls in the Poconos was the first big contest. The court ruled that historical use, particularly by the lumber industry, established a navigable status for that river. Stoddartsville Falls is more than twenty feet high and requires a portage by any sane boater, so note again that legal navigability has little to do with clear passage. The second and more recent ruling concerning the Little J and the infamous Mr. B drew a lot more attention. The pattern of historical commercial use on the Little J was very well established by the plaintiff's lawyers and experts, even though expert testimony for the other side tried to show that the river could only be used for commercial travel during periods of high water. There are probably many other posted waters where navigability could be established by law, but all of this takes a serious commitment of time and money to resolve. When we are not complaining, most of us are busy trying to squeeze in a little fishing, and we can't do much about it. Really, establishing mutually respectful relationships between landowners and anglers could alleviate much of the problem, but the kind of "relationships" Mr. B's money can buy are hard to beat with courteous behavior. Petty greed coupled with the promise of instant gratification is a ruinous thing these days, and everyone seems to be grabbing as much as they can get. Thanks for the kind invitation to share your precious peace and quiet. Sounds very nice, indeed. Best, Lloyd

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