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WestMay 30th, 2007, 8:27 am
Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Posts: 46
Regarding David's statistics on mortality and release, I'm actually a little surprised that the difference in fish mortality of barbless and barbed hooks was not greater in the studies indicated. However, I guess if you're talking about total fish being released each year, 1 to 4 percent is really a large chunk.

The part about summer steelhead mortality is quite disturbing to me; 90%? Wow. Water temp. is something that i hadn't thought a lot about when releasing fish, but I do know that it really should be taken into account when the temps. rise in the warmer months on some freestone streams. Thanks for bringing that up. It's a good point.
West

http://pleasantly-obsessed.blogspot.com/
Shawnny3May 31st, 2007, 4:24 am
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
Nice follow-up, West - 1 to 4% of all fish released could be a huge number, especially on pressured C&R streams where a single fish might be caught and released a dozen or more times in a season - 1 to 4% times 10 or 20 releases for a single fish starts to become a pretty significant mortality percentage.

I was also hoping that David could clarify those numbers by telling us more about the comparison. For example, if barbless hooks result in a 10% mortality rate compared with an 11-14% mortality rate for barbed hooks, then the difference isn't that great. But if the barbless hooks result in a 1% mortality rate while the barbed are at 2-5%, then the difference is huge.

Last, I'm inferring from David's posts that the time spent playing a fish could be really important in warm-water conditions. Does this mean we should try to use heavier tackle in warmer water and play fish more aggressively to try to minimize stress?

Thanks,
Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
KonchuMay 31st, 2007, 10:02 am
Site Editor
Indiana

Posts: 496
Thanks for the good "take home" messages.
MartinlfMay 31st, 2007, 10:47 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2911
David, thanks again for the information. Do you think the 70 degree F is too high a cut off point in general? I do, as Shawn suggests, make sure I can play and release fish quickly if the temperature is in the upper 60's, as I'm often using beetles or sinking inchworms and higher X tippet in summer conditions. --Louis
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
TroutnutMay 31st, 2007, 2:23 pm
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2543
The barb on a size 500 hook is practically non-existent.


That's good! Now I won't have to pinch the barbs down when I'm tying flies for the E. coli hatch.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
MartinlfJune 1st, 2007, 6:03 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2911
Thanks, David, I really wanted your view, and will take it into serious consideration. When fishing water in the high 60's I have played fish quickly and held them in the current to revive them if there was any question. All the fish I recall have bolted when released, and seemed very healthy, but I'll revise my cut off downward a bit, I believe. This has been a serious concern of mine, and I'm glad to get more information.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
HendricksonJune 2nd, 2007, 10:43 am
Posts: 2Just for the other side of the debate, total catch-and-release is not the answer in all fishery situations. In fact, it might go too far and there is often nothing wrong with harvesting fish which is why slot limits were created.

Case in point is bass. It's been proven that if you release all the bass you are going to end up with 12-inch bass that die at 6-years old. Same applies to trout and nearly everything. There always losses and that can be a boon.

I don't use barbless hooks are participate in the moral demensions of how a fish is caught or released. I really do not think that they apply.

Fish do move and take up different locations throughout the year. Some studies on one fish showed that after being hooked and released that they would travel miles and eventually return so it depends on the water, whether lake or stream.

Depends on what you want. If you want all sorts of trout, then make it total catch-and-release and no doubt stress the forage base. If you a trophy fishery that is an stream that can produce such fishing then taking a few fish out might be a good idea.

I've always been against total catch-and-release and messengers of it because it does not make good sense for one. You might need a high and low slot-limit as well, depending upon the area and stream.

We are running at over 70-degrees here already so the fish are in their summer patterns of coldwater upwellings. I go with much heavier line at night and do a quick release unless it's a trophy fish I want.
They'll make it with coldwater around.

Unless I read David wrong, he said that there is not enough sound information to prove that barbless hooks are a benefit. A wound is a wound and fish are tough critters.
MartinlfJanuary 11th, 2009, 4:53 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2911
David's first comment on barbless hooks was this:

"Most studies show a benefit of 1% to 4% (that I've seen--many show less, some show more) when barbless hooks are used. Therefore, many fisheries people conclude that barbless hooks are only helpful in preventing disfigurement which can cause an ugly fish photo. Unfortunately, this is not statistically sound. If everyone used barbless hooks for C&R, the number of fish saved would be huge (1% of a million is a big number)."

I've gone to all barbless recently after discussing the issue with a former U.S. team member. He maintains that the Tiemco SPBL hooks, Knapek hooks, Partridge barbless scud/grub hooks, and some of the Gamakatsu barbless hold fish better than any barbed hook. My experience last season bears this out. The Gamakatsu vertical emerger is one of my new favorites, as are the Knapek Grub hooks.

"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
GoofusBugJanuary 11th, 2009, 6:25 pm
Posts: 31I only release.

Though when we were growing up, my dad used to creel the hatchery rainbows he would catch in the put and take "trout ponds" the next town over.

I was reading in the latest Trout Unlimited magazine that there are certain streams where they are trying to get a rare western trout (Apache maybe?) and they need to thin out the brookies to do so. Problem is, they can't get any anglers willing to NOT catch and release! Ironic.
RleePJanuary 11th, 2009, 7:19 pm
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 382
>>I was reading in the latest Trout Unlimited magazine that there are certain streams where they are trying to get a rare western trout (Apache maybe?) and they need to thin out the brookies to do so. Problem is, they can't get any anglers willing to NOT catch and release! Ironic.>>

Yup.. It is (or has been..)a problem in situations where fisheries managers want to reduce one competing species in favor of another. A few years back, I had a WI-DNR guy tell me that there was no way to know if some regs they put on a mixed brown/brook population designed to reduce the numbers of browns would work because pretty much all the anglers interviewed were letting all fish go. I think they gave up and abandoned the idea eventually..
HellgramiteJanuary 13th, 2009, 10:15 am
Southern calif.

Posts: 45
I have read over the last couple of years that catch and release has a good side and bad.The good is that fish populations increase.The bad side is fish populations increase to much.They have found in some waters that there are so many fish that the fish grow to adult size and spawn but are only 5"-6" in size.So now some scientists are calling to relax catch and release rules in waters that are over populated.By removing some fish (dang they are good)Helps the populations to grow larger and be much more healthy.So what I'm saying is it's OK to keep a couple of Trout and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
HellgramiteJanuary 13th, 2009, 10:17 am
Southern calif.

Posts: 45
I have read over the last couple of years that catch and release has a good side and bad.The good is that fish populations increase.The bad side is fish populations increase to much.They have found in some waters that there are so many fish that the fish grow to adult size and spawn but are only 5"-6" in size.So now some scientists are calling to relax catch and release rules in waters that are over populated.By removing some fish (dang they are good)Helps the populations to grow larger and be much more healthy.So what I'm saying is it's OK to keep a couple of Trout and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
WbranchJanuary 14th, 2009, 2:51 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
I'm too lazy to read all of the posts so if someone else said this just ignore me. My take is any C&R for wild trout is better than harvesting your limit every time you go out. Notice I said wild trout. I don't have any heartache with guys killing planted trout as that is one of the major reasons why they were stocked in the first place. Obviously minimal handling is also paramount to protecting the health of the trout as is remembering not to pursue wild trout in any water warmer than 70 degrees.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
MartinlfJanuary 14th, 2009, 7:04 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2911
Hey Matt, good to see you posting a bit. Too damn cold to fish here in PA right now!
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
WbranchJanuary 22nd, 2009, 10:52 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Hi Louis,

During the winter I hibernate and since I don't want to fish in cold weather I don't visit the forums very often - in a couple of months SE PA will be open, then before you know it Hendriksons will be on the Catskill rivers, then it's off to Montana for three weeks.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
MartinlfJanuary 23rd, 2009, 5:17 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2911
Hey Matt,

Sent you a PM regarding the coming season.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
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