Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > Not Hydropsyche, not Phryganeidae--more reasons

The Specimen

Neophylax (Autumn Mottled Sedges) Caddisfly AdultNeophylax (Autumn Mottled Sedges) Caddisfly Adult View 20 PicturesThis large caddisfly looks really neat close-up.
Collected September 19, 2006 from Mystery Creek #43 in New York
Added to Troutnut.com by on October 4, 2006

The Discussion

GONZOOctober 8th, 2006, 9:19 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
I'm not familiar with this species, but I've taken another look through all the photos, and this is the best rationale I can come up with--

Not Hydropsyche: Wing venation is wrong; spur pattern is wrong; maxillary palp is wrong. But H. betteni is about the right size and color.

Not Phryganeidae: Size is wrong (common genera, Phryganea and Ptilostomis, typically range from 21-25mm); spur pattern is wrong (usually 2,4,4).

Probably Limnephilidae: Shape and venation of front and hind wings very similar to drawings of Dicosmoecus wings; maxillary palp matches configuration of Limnephilid females; spur pattern 1,2,4 matches (usually 1,2-3,4); large setal wart on scutellum matches.

Possibly Limnephilus: Size of specimen (13-14mm) is about average for this genus; overall color and pattern seems compatible with other members of this genus I've seen; the pattern of setae and setal warts appears to exactly match a drawing of Limnephilus; location and habitat seem reasonable (but with 95 species in the genus, it's hard to rule anything out on that account).

The other reason for suggesting Limnephilus is a simple process of elimination. It's probably not Frenesia or Psychoglypha, based on season (and color). I know Pycnopsyche and Hydatophylax well, and it's not either of them. I'm familiar with Dicosmoecus, and that's not it. Onocosmoecus and Platycentropus are larger; and Ironoquia is a different shape. Ecclisomyia, Oligophlebodes, and Chyranda all have "Western" in their common name.

I know this leaves out quite a few oddball genera, but I'm sticking with Limnephilus until Litobrancha picks up this thread and tells me what it really is! :)

TroutnutOctober 8th, 2006, 9:57 pm
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2539
I'm glad I've got you and Litobrancha (and Taxon and everyone else) to help out with the identification! It's hard to collect and photograph and identify everything quickly, especially since I haven't really taken the time to learn my caddisflies well yet.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
LitobranchaOctober 20th, 2006, 11:54 am
Knoxville TN

Posts: 51
Limnephilus is a good bet. I tried to use the Schmid keys but for limnephilids they mostly use genitalic characters. but it is not a dicosmoecine since the discoidal cell is only barely intercepted by F1 in the front wing.

jason if you really wanted to get bug geeky you could break off the last four or five abdominal segments, boil them in KOH (although i bet coca cola would do about the same thing) for about 4 minutes, rinse well (i use boiling tap water) and then take some dorsal lateral and ventral view pictures. might be able to get a name on that rascal. not sure if you have that much time, but that's how we do it. if it were a male it would be much easier, in theory.

beautiful specimen!!!
TroutnutOctober 20th, 2006, 12:03 pm
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2539
I assume that process enhances the small parts for photography somehow?

Could you point me to any references on the process? I'd really like to start taking good closeups of tiny features but I haven't found a good method. I can start with what you suggested but I'd like to read some background on the idea.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
LitobranchaOctober 20th, 2006, 9:24 pm
Knoxville TN

Posts: 51
well as far as original references go if you are into caddisflies you should have a copy of Herbert Ross 1944 Trichoptera of Illinois. it has many of the eastern species and good keys to species for larvae and adults. the taxonomy has changed a bit for some taxa but it's a fine place to start. and there are good descriptions of larval rearing techniques and also the clearing process i mentioned. and tons of good references to other authors and the original literature.

you may be able to find something about it online, seems like i found a newsletter that was also published in spanish a few years ago that had details about clearing techniques. the basic ideas is to remove the somatic tissues from the gentialia so that you may see internal structures and get a better idea of exactly what you are looking for.

or you can email me directly and i'll send you some more details. i'll be on a pynopsyche and neophylax hunt next week on the blue ridge parkway but i'll send you some papers (pdfs) if you'd like).

DarkDunOctober 19th, 2007, 9:03 am
Posts: 16
Generically this looks like a rust colored caddis with dark mottled wings which to me is what I need to tie on a size 12 hook and get out and fish with about 6 of these in my fly box.
Here in NC we have a October Caddis emerging all month (October) that is a size 12. Would this be the same species that Trout Nut collected in September in the Northeast?
This is a good hatch for fly fishers in the Southeast this time of year because of its size while most other hatch activity is a size 18 to 24.
GONZOOctober 20th, 2007, 9:41 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
DD-

The specimen under discussion in this thread was eventually identified as Neophylax by Vishivkova. If you go to the Neophylax page in the aquatic insects section (or plug Neophylax into the site search engine) you'll find several threads related to this specimen.

As for the "October Caddis" you're seeing, that name has a more specific meaning in the West (where it usually refers to the big Dicosmoecus caddisflies). Here in the East, about all you can say is that the name refers to caddisflies seen in October. These can often be the large Pycnopsyche species, also known as the great brown autumn sedges or giant red sedges. But it can also refer to some smaller fall species, like Neophylax. At a #12, your bugs are more likely the latter than the former (which are about #8).

Somewhere in those threads you'll also find a similar question from John (JAD) about a species he sees on the Little J.

Best,
Gonzo
QuillgordonOctober 20th, 2007, 11:11 am
Schuylkill County, PA.

Posts: 109
Gonzo,
Is it p[ossible this could be a 'scaly wing sedge' of the genus ceraclea.
those light colored hairs on the wings drew my attention.
i can't tell if the color is white, or tan. here is how la fontaine describes the insect:
wing... color varies from light brown to dark brown, or from light gray to almost black. on many species the wings have patches of white hairs and/or pockets of white scales varies from straw yellow to green to almost black.
body.... varies from straw yellow to green to almost black.
legs.... vary from straw yellow to almost black.
length..... up to 13 mm.

reference.... caddisflies, la fontaine, pg.253
Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g.

C/R........barbless
GONZOOctober 20th, 2007, 6:29 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Hi John,

It's nice to talk to you again! I think Vishivkova got it right with the Neophylax ID, and Lito also thought it was a good call. There are a number of things that would help to rule out Ceraclea, but one of the more obvious (especially for anglers who don't carry microscopes in their vests) is that they are one of the "long-horn sedges." Typically, the antennae on Ceraclea are about twice the body length or more.

Best,
Gonzo



QuillgordonOctober 21st, 2007, 7:45 am
Schuylkill County, PA.

Posts: 109
Gonzo,
I missed that point in the book...... skimmed thru.
It was mentioned that 'Oecetis' had a 'very long distinctive antenna' and a picture was included, but earilier he stated that was true of the entire genus.
Too many caddis, too many look alikes.........
I love these 'critters' ...................LOL.

Thanks for the reply.
John
Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g.

C/R........barbless
CrenoDecember 21st, 2007, 9:20 pm
Grants Pass, OR

Posts: 295
Folks - follow Tanya Vshivkova's trail - it is Neophylax. The photos are really good but as Litobrancha indicates you will need to look at her private parts in detail to figure out what it is.

Neophylax is a great genus for fish squeezers as you should be able to separate the adults by a simple combination of color pattern/location/date. That is if the bug pickers can get all the photos up for you. This critter may be a very highly colored N.fuscus or it is a problematic species close to N.ornatus. N.ornatus has only been reported as a spring/early summer species and the apical forewing cells have stripes - not spots like these photos.

Your collections can go a long way to resolving these questions, and provide the pictures, so it is great to see a forum like this.

dave

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: Fall Hatches: September - December
In General Discussion by Jesse
4Aug 17, 2012
by Jesse
Identification: Limnephilidae
In Limnephilidae Caddisfly Larva by Litobrancha
0
Re: Big Yellow Caddis
In Neophylax Caddisfly Adult by Martinlf
8Oct 1, 2009
by Flyguy212
Re: Buying Materials
In General Discussion by GldstrmSam
3Nov 28, 2011
by GldstrmSam
Re: Northern Caddis fly Pattern
In the Photography Board by Troutnabout
4Dec 17, 2006
by Troutnut
Caddisflies in the Ontario area list needed Just the very most important ones
In General Discussion by Brookyman
0
Re: About these beautiful pictures of caddis.
In Neophylax Caddisfly Adult by Vshivkova
7Nov 20, 2006
by GONZO
Re: Hydropsyche
In Neophylax Caddisfly Adult by Taxon
1Oct 5, 2006
by GONZO
Re: Favorite Midge Pupa or Larva Patterns
In Fly Tying by Lastchance
5Aug 21, 2011
by Sayfu
Re: Some Familiar Philippine Macroinverts
In General Discussion by PaulRoberts
13Jan 12, 2014
by PaulRoberts
Most Recent Posts
Re: Fly fishing etiquette
In General Discussion by Red_green_h (Jmd123 replied)
Re: Site updates from September 8, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (RleeP replied)
Re: Looking for advice
In Fly Tying by OldHasBeen
Re: Site updates from September 13, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Site updates from September 11, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Site updates from September 10, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Ice dub versus sparkle dub
In Fly Tying by Brian314
Site updates from September 4, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut
Re: Ophiogomphus occidentis
In the Identify This! Board by Millcreek (Troutnut replied)
Re: Summer to fall - What's happened to the fishing :)
In General Discussion by TDMunro (Partsman replied)