Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > furled leaders/highstick nymphing, Page 3

GONZOAugust 15th, 2011, 6:51 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
As was said earlier in the thread however, its always nice to acquire new skills and techniques, not only to increase your catch rate, but to keep your fishing experience new and fresh!

Agreed. There's almost always something to be learned from experimentation, even if some of the new or different techniques end up being things that we don't use very often or don't particularly enjoy as much as others.
EntomanAugust 15th, 2011, 7:33 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
A-Man -

Gonzo is right of course about hard fast rules on virtually anything involving this sport. We can discuss dozens of different methods of effectively getting nymphs deep. I'm sorry for sounding so dogmatic. What I was trying to do was to get the focus on the proper way to use the hinged indicator method you were talking about and sweep away the confusion that was developing. As somebody relatively new to the sport, I think if you focus on the concepts I mentioned and work at it, you will be better off. Get the basics nailed and you can experiment with nuances. In fact, you will probably come up with your own.

All kidding aside about the article you mentioned, I haven't read it either, and so have no context. I can say that any method employing enough weight and a large enough indicator to prevent both the flies being swept away and the indicator from being pulled under... Well, I'll just be diplomatic and say its not a method that sounds too attractive to me for use on the trout waters I fish, and for quite a few reasons. But hey, there's more than one way to skin a cat and to each their own.

BTW - The mending sequence I mentioned above was for the typical run or riffle of similar surface flow. In practice, mending requirements are highly variable depending on many factors. For example, if the water is flowing dramatically slower between you and the indicator, less mending is necessary, if you are dealing with cross currents you may have to mend downstream after setting the indicator. There are also specifics involving tippet length and weight selection (if any, and where to put it) we never got into.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
AdirmanAugust 15th, 2011, 7:57 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Entoman;

No problem at all; I'm a member of several flyfishing forums and I always respect and look forward to receiving your opinion on matters such as these up there w/ a few other guys on other discussion boards(you too Gonzo!!). Right now, I'm a pretty decent fly-fisherman, have learned alot and caught alot but always looking for more and so i challenge myself by talking to guys like yourselves with much more knowledge and experience. Hopefully, you'll never tire of my questions!!

If you'd like, i'll get more specific info from said article and post and you can savor and respond. Very awesome discussion here BTW!!
EntomanAugust 15th, 2011, 8:59 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Looking forward to it. I should read it before getting so critical:):)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
OldredbarnAugust 16th, 2011, 9:42 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
"apophasis"?)


Gonzo, Who? Me? ;) That Louis is one wise old cat! :) He actually drove this old dutchman to a dictionary! I'm afraid he's on to me G...

Spence



The Oxford English Dictionary defines apophasis by quoting John Smith's* The Mysterie of Rhetorique Unvail'd (1657): "a kind of Irony, whereby we deny that we say or doe that which we especially say or doe."
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
SayfuAugust 18th, 2011, 8:26 am
Posts: 560
I didn't like the one furled leader I used for aggressively laying out line on a 5 wt. It was too flemsy, and didn't turn over well. I put it on my 3wt for easy, close in casting. Remember, on a furled leader....stick a hook in it, and the leader is toast. I have yet to try the twisted, mono leaders that have more wt., are stiffer, and I think will work much better. You just add a length of tippet on these as well.
AdirmanAugust 21st, 2011, 12:30 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Entoman;

I fished a bit yesterday and slipped on a thingamabob for my longer distance nymphing that the coil wasn't effective for. I definitely believe that you are right, that the flies MUST precede the bobber to get a good drift. Otherwise, like you said, the bobber can tend to tug on the flies and cause them to drift unnaturally. Only thing is, because the bobbers moving faster on top, you have to give it a tug every now and then to reposition it back and behind. W/o a doubt though, you are correct:Flies first, bobber last!
AdirmanSeptember 5th, 2011, 6:32 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Entoman (or anyone);

Remember our discussion w/ the proper drift using the thingamabobber? Supposed to be flies first, right? Again, I agree w/ what you say in regards to that but here's maybe a limitation then when using thingamabob indicators:can you use them for straight upstream casts and drifts? I'm thinking it wouldn't work cuz you could never get your bobber set w/ flies first in that particular scenario, right, or am I missing something? As far as I can tell, the thingamabob indicator is only good for across,down and across, or straight down presentations wouldn't you say?
GONZOSeptember 5th, 2011, 7:03 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
...or am I missing something?

Just my opinion, A-man, but I think you're letting thinking about "rules" interfere with practical fishing. Indicators often work fine straight upstream, and if they don't, you can use a tuck cast to get the fly down quicker, throw a "stall" mend straight upstream, or add weight to get a slightly "overweighted" effect to slow the drift.
AdirmanSeptember 5th, 2011, 7:23 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Gonzo;

Yes, I tend to do that! In my professional life, I'm a teacher so, I've learned to over categorize stuff in order to understand it better but in flyfishing, like in many other walks of life, its not always that simple! Could you describe the stall mend please and also, how adding weight to slow the drift would benefit here?
EntomanSeptember 5th, 2011, 7:41 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
A-man -

In addition to Gonzo's advice, I suggest you look for a way to reposition yourself. I'm not a big fan of straight upstream presentations for a few very important reasons. Some deflection is always desirable even if it's only 10 degrees. If the flies are well anchored, you can easily flip the indicator back up stream and let it reset in the drift. BTW - I don't normally fish indicators downstream, meaning feeding line with the intention of doing so. I usually just follow the drift as far as I can with the rod tip until it starts to swing. Then I just follow the swing around and spey cast the rig back into a new cast. BTW - I'm not a big fan of thingamebobs.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GONZOSeptember 5th, 2011, 8:05 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Could you describe the stall mend please and also, how adding weight to slow the drift would benefit here?

Sure.

A stall mend can be accomplished by sending a wave up your fly line. Properly done, it lifts the indicator momentarily to reposition it (in about the same spot, but now upstream of the fly/weight).

Any "overweighting" technique slows the drift by the weight interacting with the bottom (like a drift anchor slowing a boat as it drifts downstream). Overweighting straight upstream (or downstream) does not require as much weight as it does across currents. If you think about it (but not too hard ;)), most high-sticking or "Czech" nymphing is a version of overweighting where the line precedes the fly and detection is either by line movement or feel. The same thing can be accomplished with indicators, but at greater distances. The "straightline" technique used by some salmon and steelhead fishers in Great Lakes tribs and the "mono-nymphing" techniques of Joe Humphreys are other versions of overweighted nymphing that work at a distance, as is the "Alaskan" indicator technique that I mentioned previously.

One can pick any number of reasons to pooh-pooh any of these techniques, but most are uniquely suited to the situations in which they are used, and all can be very effective. Preferences and aesthetics are another matter, but I admire practical anglers and the innovations and adaptations they produce, even when I might choose to fish another way.
AdirmanSeptember 6th, 2011, 5:07 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Gonzo;

I use the stall mend already i guess although i didn't know it was called that! The tuck cast is a good idea and i googled it and now see how to do it. Once again, thanks!

Entoman;

So you try to reposition yourself to avoid the straight up/downstream drifts w/ nymphing right? When if the only possible way for you to work a stretch of water is moving downstream and yet, you wish to indicator nymph? How would you do it? Would you just stick w/ up and across drifts and take a step or 2 downstream each time after each drift? Also, why do you not care for the thingamabob?

Thanks alot,
Adirman
EntomanSeptember 7th, 2011, 2:39 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Adirman,

I use the stall mend already i guess although i didn't know it was called that! The tuck cast is a good idea and i googled it and now see how to do it. Once again, thanks!

A stall mend is basically what I was describing when I told you to flip the indicator upstream. I find that for all but the slowest currents you will have to move the indicator though, not just stall it's drift. Remember to let the flies anchor a little or you will move them too much. The lighter the flies/weight the more difficult this is, especially with heavy indicators. Match them (mend & indicator) to the tackle you are using.

The tuck cast is a good idea and i googled it and now see how to do it.

The tuck cast is essentialy an overpowered cast where the shoot of the line is stopped while still carrying a lot of energy forward or an aggressive and properly timed pull-back on a more open looped softer cast. Notwithstanding my use of terms like "overpowered" and "aggressive pull-back", it is actually a delicate cast if executed properly well above the water's surface, as all forward momentum of the line is checked and it will gently settle to the water. Depending on your casting skill and the type of rig you are using this cast can be very detrimental to your terminal tackle (tangles). I generally use this cast only with a single nymph sans indicator (sometimes accidentally:)), but that's me. Multiple flies and split-shot combined with wind resistant indicators work with less problems if the line never changes direction during the cast. If you can learn to single hand spey cast and lay the rod down when you miss fish, tangles will largely be a thing of the past for you. You will also be less prone to catch tree fish on the backcast. There are few joys like an indicator caught in a tree with a couple of nymphs and split-shot wound up every which way in the branches.:)

So you try to reposition yourself to avoid the straight up/downstream drifts w/ nymphing right?

Yes, and not just for indicator nymphing.

When if the only possible way for you to work a stretch of water is moving downstream and yet, you wish to indicator nymph?

I'm not sure I follow the question. If you can fish down why can't you fish up?

How would you do it? Would you just stick w/ up and across drifts and take a step or 2 downstream each time after each drift?

No. For indicator fishing, pick out the slots and pieces of water you want to fish and approach them the same, that is as directly across as you can. You may move ten feet, 60 ft, or two feet depending on the situation. Learn to get your nymphs in the zone and keep them there. The better you get at it (estimation of the distance needed up from the zone for the nymphs to sink and improved mending skills) the less weight you need to get the job done, which is better for a more natural presentation (not to mention more pleasant). I also want to stress that though indicator nymphing is not my favorite, there are water types and water conditions where it is hard to beat. When that's the case, it doesn't take me long to rig up.:). There are also lots of times and places where I would view it as a severe handicap. Lots of guys may spend 75% of their fishing time this way (even know a few that will indicate through rising fish). Whatever you enjoy is what counts.

Also, why do you not care for the thingamabob?

Well, lots of reasons, but I stress these are mine and many may disagree. Gonzo is right about "rules".

1. Awkwardness - Though they seem light in the hand, they fish heavier than other types for some reason, wobbling all over the place. The bigger ones are exceptionally clumsy.

2. Stealth - To my way of thinking, they don't look very natural. I'm firmly convinced that fluorescent orbs floating overhead can be associated with danger by the trout on some of our hard fished waters. I prefer poly macrame yarn in olive (Spring, Summer) and a peachy tan (Fall, Winter). Trim them as small as possible to fit the rig you're fishing. I clinch knot a small piece in the middle to a level 20 lb. butt (3 to 9 ft long), trim, comb and treat and clinch knot the 1st section of tippet above it on the butt. The cost?, about .01 cents. This is the set-up I'll use most often. Not always, but most often.

3. Resistance - Tgb's don't depend on surface tension and little pockets of trapped air to keep them floating. Like trying to push a water polo ball below the surface, the more they're pulled under, the greater the resistance. I believe that soft taking fish can be sensitive to this. I trim the macrame as small as I can get away with, based on the rig I'm using and the water I'm on. Unlike the tgb, as the yarn begins to be pulled under, the resistance decreases and if balanced properly to your tackle, there isn't much to begin with.

4. Knot strength - I don't like attaching light tippets to tgbs. Test clinch knots with 6x on a key chain ring.

5. Not in line - If the TMG is used with a loop further up a tapered leader, Why not use an inline foam model? It's far more tangle resistant... The latter are the better for lakes, especially when fishing deep midge larvae/pupa. (the best ones have a release mechanism of some sort).

6. Less data - Assuming a dead drift, the tbg just floats along. A properly prepared and balanced yarn indicator on the other hand, can tell you tons by how it's floating along.

Regards,

Kurt

"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
AdirmanSeptember 7th, 2011, 6:17 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Entoman;

What I meant by just being able to fish downstream is, suppose it impossible to fish up because suppose, for example, there was a deep hole immediately upstream so that you couldn't wade any further and also, you couldn't walk around it on either side due to too much brush or something and therefore, were forced to fish downstream. Yes, you could fish the deep pool for a bit that i described but after that, either go downstream or, leave!

Also, you brought alot of good pts about the bobber. I also feel like it might raise alarm bells to wary trout by its presence and yes, using it on light tippet sucks!! I think i'm going to try the yarn as many other guys have told me also like you did that they work well and are probably superior to the bobber.

Finally, you recommend repositioning as much as possible to get the best drift out of your rig which, in most cases, is pretty much up and across or across, right, because you said you like at least a slight angle relative to the river/stream in terms of your casts?

If I might pose another ?,
What happens if you let your drift go excessively far downstream? I mean, i've done that to expt but never caught anything when its gets too far away from me even though i can see the bobber clear. I'm wondering if there's too much line on the water in that situation and creates drag on the bobber a bit which pulls on the flies. does that sound right?

Thank you once again for your input!!

Your friend,

Adirman
EntomanSeptember 8th, 2011, 4:14 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Aderman -

What I meant by just being able to fish downstream is, suppose it impossible to fish up because suppose, for example, there was a deep hole immediately upstream so that you couldn't wade any further and also, you couldn't walk around it on either side due to too much brush or something and therefore, were forced to fish downstream. Yes, you could fish the deep pool for a bit that i described but after that, either go downstream or, leave!

Ah, I know what you mean. Same answer though, I just didn't do a complete job of explaining myself. Sorry about that. I'll often head downstream directionally, if for no other reason than that's the water that may interest me from where I parked or perhaps because the stretches upstream are occupied. That doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to fish downstream. I pick my spots as mentioned above. If it is a long uniform run, I may hike down to the tail and fish back up, if I'm not cutting anybody off.

Finally, you recommend repositioning as much as possible to get the best drift out of your rig which, in most cases, is pretty much up and across or across, right, because you said you like at least a slight angle relative to the river/stream in terms of your casts?

Close. I try never to cast across if I can help it. The only thing that is across or slightly up and across is the sweet spot, not the cast. The cast will be upstream enough to get the nymphs in the zone through the sweet spot. How far will be determined by speed, depth, sink rate, and one's line handling skills.

What happens if you let your drift go excessively far downstream?

Usually a lot of missed fish and spooked water. Remember most of the takes will be from fish on or close to the bottom at the level of your nymphs and they will not turn down or even very often turn to the side steeply with the fly in their mouths. Move down and fish the water properly.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Kurt
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Page:123

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: Tippet affecting Energy Transfer?
In Gear Talk by FisherOfMen
6Apr 28, 2015
by Cptenn94
Re: Cork Screw Leaders
In Gear Talk by Wbranch
1Oct 3, 2016
by PaulRoberts
Re: Does indicator affect leader size?
In Fly Tying by Gt2003
5Apr 13, 2019
by Adirman
Re: fishing deep
In Beginner Help by Bcnorthfly
1Jun 3, 2015
by Martinlf
Re: Furled leaders
In Gear Talk by Adirman
11Jul 13, 2018
by Adirman
Re: Nymphing Methods
In General Discussion by Martinlf
8Dec 30, 2009
by Martinlf
Re: Furled Leaders
In Gear Talk by Outdoors198
9Mar 1, 2015
by Outdoors198
Re: Air-Lock Indicators... Thoughts?
In General Discussion by Outdoors198
11Oct 5, 2015
by Planettrout
Re: new
In General Discussion by Greenwolly
1Aug 14, 2009
by Flytyer0423
Re: Spring flow in late summer.
In Fishing Reports by PaulRoberts
40Sep 2, 2010
by PaulRoberts
Most Recent Posts
Re: Need help ID Nemoura nymph
In the Identify This! Board by Cherylkorca (Leskorcala replied)
Re: gang hooks for worms with 4 pd. line and tiny hooks
In General Discussion by Geneso (Martinlf replied)
Re: Pretty float down the Yakima Canyon
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Mgbenjamin5 replied)
Re: Shiawassee River (Michigan)
In General Discussion by Brian314 (Strmanglr replied)
Re: Skwala question
In Skwala Stonefly Nymph by Gillybilly (Leskorcala replied)
Re: Salmon smolt
In the Photography Board by Wbranch (Troutnut replied)
Re: Little Manistee
In Fishing Reports by Summer_doug (Troutnut replied)
Re: Nymph ID please help
In the Identify This! Board by Cherylkorca (Leskorcala replied)
Madison-Gallatin Trout Unlimited -TroutFest 2020
In General Discussion by Mikemac1
Re: Trout Unlimited, who are they?
In General Discussion by Red_green_h (Wbranch replied)