Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > Putting this site to good use!, Page 2

HellgramiteApril 24th, 2009, 11:27 am
Southern calif.

Posts: 45
I was always told By guides that size then color is what you look for first in a fly.This makes sense to me.If I open the fridge and there is a piece of chicken that is green and the size of a ham I don't think I would eat it.So if there is a hatch of or nymph of Mayflies on or in the water and they are pale blue and a size 20,I would think this is where you would start.The other thing I have learned is that if you have 10 people tie a fly of the same bug you will get 10 flies that look the same but are different.Sometimes I feel that people tend to take things a little to far and at some point you just have to get back to basics.There is an old saying(LESS IS MORE)I think that all of you are very talented and passionate about fly fishing as I am.But are not flies tied to augment a real bug to catch fish with, or to impress people.There are contests you can enter to show off your abilities but what it comes down to is catching fish.Hell I have had Trout take my strike indicator.
MartinlfApril 24th, 2009, 6:52 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2968
Brett,

Anchor flies are used in Polish or Czech nymphing. Here's an anchor fly:

http://flyguysoutfitting.com/vladiworm.html

I haven't fished this one yet, but those who have say it catches fish. It's designed, as Loren says, to act as split shot with a hook in it. His site, flyguysoutfitting.com, from which this link was taken, describes an anchor fly rig in the "Dropper Dynamics" article.

There's a good article on Czech nymphing in a recent FlyFisherman magazine; one caution--use a short leader and no line out if you try it. You lead the flies with the rod and strike at any hesitation. There's tons of information on the internet as well.

"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
BRomerApril 24th, 2009, 9:18 pm
Alcoa, TN

Posts: 8
Hellgrammite, I'm agreeing with the whole bad vs. good meal theory. I'm just attempting to take it a step further and say burger vs. steak? Rather fishable vs. realistic/impressionistic!

Martin, I'm a tailwater kinda guy. By golly I bought a Hyde, and now I'm gonna fish with it. There are a few streams in the smokies that appear to be "Czech" style water. I mentioned earlier in the post that Oliver Edwards started this awful complex I've fixed myself with. However, that is no Czech fly...That my friend is a "JUNK" fly! LMAO...I'm no purist, but I believe I may have to give it a go! Though now, I must add, I find myself wondering what colors condoms come in all while trying to figure out how I'm going to break the news to my wife that I'll be purchasing condoms on our next trip to WallyWorld. Wonder how that's gonna go over!

All in all, nice site and thanks for the link.

~Brett

Hug A Thug Program Director by Day, another Trout Nut the rest of the time!
GONZOApril 24th, 2009, 11:08 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
If I open the fridge and there is a piece of chicken that is green and the size of a ham I don't think I would eat it.

Follow whatever rules you like when fly fishing, Hellgramite, but I'm not sure that relying on size and color is the safest way to determine whether your chicken is edible....

Brett,
I just ordered your book my friend.

My publisher thanks you, my wife thanks you, and I thank you! (Check your PM.)
WiflyfisherApril 25th, 2009, 12:55 pm
Wisconsin

Posts: 612
I agree with Gonzo. I don't think size and color is enough. Also, the trout in Eastern USA tend to be very snobbish and well educated. :-)
John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
GONZOApril 25th, 2009, 1:41 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
:) :) ;) John--those traits make them particularly well-suited to Eastern anglers, who are at least a match for them in the former aspect. :)
WiflyfisherApril 25th, 2009, 3:17 pm
Wisconsin

Posts: 612
Your trout see more flies, bamboo flyrods and Orvis outfits in one day then our trout see in a month! That's enough to make any trout into a snob! :-)

The Delaware is the only place where I can remember where guys are willing to fight for their fishing holes! I can remember a guy starting to wade into the area we were fishing right by me and Natasi screaming at him: "To get the #@$%^& out of our pool!" Natasi turned and said to me: "The A@!$*(#@ probably knew you were from Wisconsin. He wouldn't try that stunt if you were from Jersey."
John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
HellgramiteApril 25th, 2009, 3:56 pm
Southern calif.

Posts: 45
I gotta tell ya you guys up in the North East must have some vary long winters.Maybe its just me but my brain is smoking just reading these posts.My head is spinning over how deep some of you guys get with this stuff.What ever happened to just fly fishing for Trout.I never thought I would need a PHD just to talk about fly fishing.
GONZOApril 25th, 2009, 5:10 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
He wouldn't try that stunt if you were from Jersey.
Nastasi knew whereof he spoke, John. The guys from Jersey usually have a fishing partner named Vito who looks like he "made his bones" when he was eight and wouldn't hesitate to put a hit on your whole family if you tried to intrude. :)
WiflyfisherApril 25th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Wisconsin

Posts: 612
"Hey! Are you talk-un to me!" :-)







John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
HellgramiteApril 25th, 2009, 5:42 pm
Southern calif.

Posts: 45
Just so happens I'm 100% Sicilian,My family is from Chicago and my Fathers name is Vito.
BRomerApril 27th, 2009, 7:54 pm
Alcoa, TN

Posts: 8
Gonzo, my attempts at visually disecting your fly was rather unsuccessful today! :( I like the way the legs turned out and could see this being rather usefull with a different type of thread. I used Danvilles 210 Denier White. I used it for both the legs and tail section. I really like the look but I'm wondering the secret to how you create each leg? I folded a piece of thread made knots in both ends, clipped the loop leaving two pieces of thread on one side of the knot then I seperated the two knots by snipping close to both knots leaving one section of thread on the opposite side? Am I rambling or does this make sense?

Any how after the sections were made I dipped into a vat of softex and allowed it to dry. I don't know if this is your exact method but is there a way to simplify it? It took forever, to make the legs! The tail section was easy. I wrapped the thread around the hook and allowed the bobbin to dangle. Quick coat of softex while the bobbin hung, and voila! Instant tail material! Once dry, it makes a material that has the same feel and appearance as Span-Flex.

Anywho, here's my attempt at recreating your legs! Is obvious I'm not using the correct thread for this application.



Lastly what's your all's thoughts on using a material like Japanese Nymph Legs aside from the obvious which will be lack of movement? If all the legs are kinked forward and it won't interfere with the hook's gape would you forsee a problem with using them?

What a fun journey this lil guy has been. Mr. Neuswanger, I never though your site would cause me soo much grief! I've decided that I have picked one of the most difficult mayflies to immitate in it's nymphal form. I must also add, that I've learned a tremendous amount of knowledge from this site, but a tremendous amount more on this specific species since joining the forum! Jason, keep up the good work my friend!

~Brett
Hug A Thug Program Director by Day, another Trout Nut the rest of the time!
GONZOApril 27th, 2009, 8:30 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Brett,

For the thread legs on the invaria nymph, I coat a strand of sewing thread with thinned Flexament. (I use 6/0 tying thread for the tails.) I dub most of the thorax and tie in three sections of the coated thread (all together, like tying in a synthetic spinner wing) toward the front of the thorax. I hold the rear pair of legs back and thinly dub over the thread to position them. I do the same with the second pair and then finish the thorax (and the fly). If you want, you can just trim the legs to length and leave it at that.

However, if you like the bent legs (I do), dip a needle/bodkin in a drop of green-label Zap-A-Gap and wipe it on the outer two-thirds of the legs. When it dries, bend the legs with a tweezers and use the needle/bodkin to place a tiny drop of Zap-A-Gap on each bend. This locks the bend in place, but because there is no stiffening next to the body, the legs are very flexible (even more so after being in the water a minute or two).

This method is much faster than any other method of tying individual (bent) legs that I know. Most other methods involve tying the legs in one at a time. I always tie these flies in groups of six or more, and I do the bending process en masse (out of the vise) after all of the flies are tied. The result looks much like the legs on your excellent fly, but takes a small fraction of the time to tie. As with any tying technique, it also gets faster and more efficient with practice.

(As for the Japanese nymph legs, you've hit upon my problem with them: the lack of flexibility and movement.)
MartinlfApril 28th, 2009, 5:29 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2968
Brett,

Your fly looks darn good to me, and it's clear that you're having fun. To me, that's the most important thing. Heck, I have fun wrapping flies with chenille and catching fish--and I've tied up some of Lloyd's wiggle nymphs and enjoyed that too. And I've caught fish on them. But I'm most impressed with your tie, and the legs look good to me. We know the fish will approve, don't we?
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
McjamesApril 28th, 2009, 9:30 am
Cortland Manor, NY

Posts: 139
I use Tyvek for legs on larger nymphs, kinked with a heated pin. But I dont know how it compares to thread when it comes to movement/flexibility. Its cheap though-- I just take FedEx envelopes from my office.
I am haunted by waters
KonchuApril 28th, 2009, 8:50 pm
Site Editor
Indiana

Posts: 496
regarding color of the PMDs

Someone thought that it could not be important to the fish.

However, I think of the example of the "pepper moth" from my biology class. Any other biologists care to pick up this illustration?


I wonder if color and predation influences the dominant morph in a given area?
TroutnutApril 29th, 2009, 1:14 am
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2555
However, I think of the example of the "pepper moth" from my biology class. Any other biologists care to pick up this illustration?


That is a really neat example. For those who haven't seen it, it's a classic textbook case of evolution by natural selection. These moths had a light & dark peppered look to begin with. During the industrial revolution when their environment was covered in soot, they evolved to be darker because birds had an easier time seeing the light ones. Now that things are a little cleaner, the lighter moths are reappearing.

There's a good article with all the details on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

I wonder if color and predation influences the dominant morph in a given area?


That's a really great question... someone could base a whole PhD on trying to answer it and analyzing the related issues that pop up. It's fascinating that there are so many different shades of Ephemerella nymphs within a single species, unlike with most other mayflies. Konchu, has anyone done any formal study on those color variations? I haven't looked recently but don't recall anything.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
GONZOApril 29th, 2009, 10:07 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
I wonder if color and predation influences the dominant morph in a given area?


That seems to make a lot of sense when I compare the range of variation that I see in different watersheds or parts of them (especially in invaria and subvaria nymphs). Although these observations are limited and anecdotal, there appears to be a rough correlation to the range of color, variety, and maybe even the predominant lighting of the habitat.

However, because our flies are an attempt to appeal to predation rather than hide from it, I often wonder if our effort to match the colors of prey doesn't work against that objective in some instances. The appeal of "hotspots," flashbacks, and bright beads seems to have something to do with that.

On the other hand, I also think that these "attractive" traits can cut both ways. If heavily pressured trout develop negative associations to the abnormally bright or distinctive flies, those traits might also be a source of rejection.
MartinlfApril 29th, 2009, 10:42 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2968
Great observations, especially on hot spots and flashbacks. I've started tying some of my hot spot flies without the hot spots for just this reason.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
TroutnutApril 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2555
That seems to make a lot of sense when I compare the range of variation that I see in different watersheds or parts of them (especially in invaria and subvaria nymphs). Although these observations are limited and anecdotal, there appears to be a rough correlation to the range of color, variety, and maybe even the predominant lighting of the habitat.


It's pretty easy to imagine a correlation like that when you're going by anecdotes. I don't have much insight one way or the other, because my collecting methods are somewhat messy. It's certainly possible that the ratio of color variants changes to match the dominant colors in each stream section, though.

Having several variants could also be a collective bet-hedging strategy, allowing at least a decent portion of the species to be well-camouflaged no matter how the environment changes. If the dominant algae growing on the rocks changes from a green species to a brown species, they'll be ready. If the rocks all get covered with silt, they'll be ready. That kind of adaptation might even responsible for the apparent dominance of subvaria and invaria in so many regions.

Another alternative is that the many color variants allow the species to use more habitat in each stream. Something I've learned from chatting with Bobbi Peckarsky, an extremely good aquatic entomologist, is that insect behavior is very complex and adaptive. These bugs are smarter, and more aware of their surroundings, than we typically give them credit for. They're not just mindless algae-cows aimlessly wandering across the stream bottom. They can respond to the presence of fish and insect predators (and many other stimuli) with a variety of major behavioral changes. So back to the question of these multi-colored Ephemerella nymphs: it's very possible that the brown ones know they're brown and seek out brown rocks, while the green ones know they're green and find a green rock.

Maybe when I'm done with grad school and I can afford some bigger toys, I'll shed some light on this question with improved underwater photography of insects in their natural habitat.

It would also be really interesting to see if these color variants are genetic, or if it's phenotypic plasticity--flexible genes that allow a wide variety of physical traits to develop in response to the environment. Any thoughts on that one, Konchu?

Anyway, as I said above... there's easily one whole PhD worth of science to be done on this one little issue.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Page:1234

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: need a good pattern
In Male Ephemerella invaria Mayfly Dun by Anttam
1Jan 7, 2009
by Phishheaduj
Mosquito Adams
In Fly Tying by Mcflyangler
0
Re: Sexy Shad Clouser Minnow
In Fly Tying by Mcflyangler
1Jun 10, 2016
by Wbranch
Re: Trico emergers
In the Mayfly Genus Tricorythodes by Bwoklink
3Jul 20, 2018
by Martinlf
Re: BWO Floating Nymph Ideas
In Fly Tying by Feathers5
7Mar 7, 2013
by PaulRoberts
Re: Cranford Trout Fishing Club meeting this Thursday
In General Discussion by MAL1924
1Oct 17, 2007
by MAL1924
Re: Info on Chris Helm
In the Photography Board by Oldredbarn
2Nov 29, 2014
by Martinlf
Re: More Realistic the Better?
In General Discussion by Adam412
9May 15, 2016
by Adam412
Re: Griffiths Gnat
In Fly Tying by Mcflyangler
1Jun 20, 2016
by Flytyerinpa
Re: Nymphing set up.
In Fly Tying by FC54
6Nov 19, 2019
by Martinlf
Most Recent Posts
Re: The Coppler Creek canyon - some nice pics from last fall to help you survive the Apocalypse
In the Photography Board by Jmd123 (Partsman replied)
Re: My wild & crazy Flordia trip part 3: hotel room and other fun stuff
In the Photography Board by Jmd123
Re: I hope all of you doing well!
In General Discussion by Partsman (Jmd123 replied)
Re: Hyrnia operation
In General Discussion by Hunter1
Re: Selecting a reel
In Beginner Help by AllanM83 (Roguerat replied)
Re: Thunder Creek flies
In Fly Tying by Dbinmt (Wbranch replied)
Re: Trout Unlimited, who are they?
In General Discussion by Red_green_h (Rollcast replied)
Re: Furled Leaders
In Gear Talk by Ov10fac (Martinlf replied)
Re: Personal Best Largemouth
In the Photography Board by Summer_doug
Re: My wild and crazy trip to Florida & back while the world went crazy in my "absence"
In the Photography Board by Jmd123