Putting this site to good use!, Page 3

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Konchu	April 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Site Editor Indiana Posts: 364	Jason: not aware of any recent, formal studies on the color morphs that address them with any depth. I could be forgetting something or someone.

Troutnut	April 29th, 2009, 11:56 am
The Admin Fairbanks, AK Posts: 2021	However, because our flies are an attempt to appeal to predation rather than hide from it, I often wonder if our effort to match the colors of prey doesn't work against that objective in some instances. The appeal of "hotspots," flashbacks, and bright beads seems to have something to do with that. That's a really good point. It's probably counter-productive to imitate too closely something that evolved for millions of years to avoid getting eaten by trout. Of course, the trout simultaneously evolved to eat that thing, so it's a dilemma. You suggested the most sensible solution, which is to imitate "defective" individuals that are real enough to be accepted by trout, and conspicuous enough to be noticed. I haven't read LaFontaine's books in the last couple years, but I'll summarize what I remember of his take on the subject. When you're looking at an object trying to figure out what it is, there are two types of cues: positive cues that make it look like something familiar, and negative cues that make it look unlike something. LaFontaine seemed to think that selective trout respond to a variety of positive cues, but not so much to negative cues. It's like they've got a little checklist of features, and if the bug or imitation has each feature on the list, it's food, even if it also has some other features that would scream "not a real bug" to us... because those negative cues are ignored. This is a pretty strong argument for "enhanced" flies of all sorts, from those with sparkly synthetic dubbing to flashbacks to bright orange wings, as long as those enhancements don't mess with the positive cues the trout are keying on.
	Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut

GONZO	April 29th, 2009, 4:51 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1636	Yeah, that's certainly one way to explain why trout are not necessarily put off by things like hooks and leaders, and I like Gary's theories. He doesn't seem to have spent quite as much time considering how negative associations brought about by pressure and exposure to flies factor into the equation, but perhaps that just wasn't very significant on many of the waters he studied and fished. There are some exceptions, however, notably his comments about his Plain Jane streamer: There's nothing special about this fly. That is its strength--not its weakness. This is a hard concept for anglers to grasp. Not every pattern should present a strong visual package....The Plain Jane features a diminution of every objectionable trait on a Muddler Minnow. The characteristics on a Muddler that can repel as well as attract, the very traits that make it a powerful fly, are replaced with simple drabness....The garish gold tinsel body, the major flaw when trout prefer subtlety, is changed to a wrapped body of regular eggshell-white yarn. He clearly seems to have understood that "attractive" traits could also repel. As I recall, he originally developed this fly while fishing on the Buffalo Ford section of the Yellowstone, which was (is?) one of the most heavily pressured areas in the Park.

Shawnny3	April 29th, 2009, 6:37 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1109	Finally got a chance to read this fantastic thread. The best line by far: I suppose you could cut through all the crap by fishing a fairly accurate imitation of a very large rock. But then, the design of some recent "anchor" flies makes me wonder if we aren't testing the validity of that approach. :) That one belongs in the Troutnut Top Ten for sure. Well put, Lloyd - a zinger even Louis could come up with no response for. Great flies, Brett - beautifully conceived and tied. Thank you for sharing them as well as your thought process in developing them. Too seldom is the evolution of a pattern shared, and it helps get readers get into the mind of the skilled tier, if not the fish. I for one am someone who appreciates the development of patterns more than the fly itself. Again, thanks for sharing. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

Martinlf	April 30th, 2009, 5:03 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 1724	Hey, I responded!
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

BRomer	May 1st, 2009, 11:01 pm
Alcoa, TN Posts: 8	Gonzo, see your PM's thanks a million. Your book is truly a work of art! I've invested alot of mulah over the years in tying materials, books, hooks, etc. but your book is pretty darn priceless! Insert Visa add! I know I'm a newcomer to the site, and don't know everyone, but if you don't have this book go get it. Mr. Chappell, thanks for your kind words sir! However, I must add that I'm having a ball driving the wife nuts talking about how to improve different patterns over the internet, phone, and at the fly shop. I enjoy tying, and fishing the "simple" bugs just as much as the next man! The ol "Don't fix what isn't broke." theory! Sometimes I just feel it isn't enough. Small fish and low fish count days account for my madness. Not to mention seeing Mr. Trout snub nose your pattern and then attack the real deal! Mcjames, I have yet to try Tyvec. Though while working I passed some guys doing a school remodel with a large roll of it. Thought about asking for a foot or two of it. I'm planning on getting some very soon. Konchu/Troutnut, very interesting stuff. However, thank you for further complicating an already vastly complicated fly. I believe I'll be tying this guy in three color schemes. Deep Brown, Olive, Light Brown/Yellow. Gonzo, your thoughts regarding hot-spots and especially bead heads really hit home with me. I too have thought that very same thing. Your book better dipicts the point you are pushing. Troutnut, "I don't have much insight one way or the other, because my collecting methods are somewhat messy." Stay messy, just keep em coming! It's a great reference site. "When you're looking at an object trying to figure out what it is, there are two types of cues: positive cues that make it look like something familiar, and negative cues that make it look unlike something." Beads, hotspots, wire, tinsels, epoxy, the list goes on! What makes it interesting to me is when a smart fish eats a dumb fly. My fly box is full of dumb flies! I always find myself wondering what specifically made the fish eat something that really doesn't resemble anything. I tie a midge pattern that doesn't remotely look like a midge other than the overall shape of the fly, which is entirely too big, but takes fish like no other fly in my arsenal. This fly is my searching pattern and always tie it on first before even descending streamside. Shawnny3, thank you very much sir for your kind words! I have seen your work before, and have really had no interest in tying classic flies until seeing your work quite some time ago. I've been told they are really interesting to tie, and have a good friend who ties them. He told me that I would be amazed to see how few wraps go into making those flies. Marrying wings, large tinsels, and big hooks make my head spin for some reason. But I can sit at the vise all day cranking out a size 20 BWO while managing to go cross eyed. Beautiful work my friend. My current favorite is Fire! I too appreciate the development of a fly. Not too often do we see it either. With an endless arena of fly manufacturors and flies for just about every bug on the river not too many seem to bother anymore. This fly, and the March Brown nymph, are two specifically that bother me. These flies are either not available to purchase or don't appropriately match the actual bug. I have yet to find one comercially tied March Brown Nymph that even slightly resembles the actual bug! Gonzo, I too have made this search. Orvis, does sell an Oliver Edwards March Brown Nymph pattern. I believe it's an Upqua Merchants pattern. Though Orvis's/Umpqua's tiers have butchered his original pattern. It's ghastly to look at! Sorry Oliver! And, as mentioned, I don't feel that the original Split Back PMD pattern even slightly resembles the actual bug in any form of it's life cycle. To everyone that replied, many thanks! I'm also glad to know I'm not the only "wierdo" out there trying to decipher all the aspects in this sport I've come to know and love! Less on "know" and more on "love". I've learned a tremendous amount and see that there are plenty of knowledgeable folks/members on this forum! Cheers! ~Brett Romer
	Hug A Thug Program Director by Day, another Trout Nut the rest of the time!

Mesanomad	July 10th, 2009, 2:38 pm
Watsontown, PA Posts: 9	Does anyone sell any of these killer flies: Oliver Edwards, Lloyd's, etc? I bought Lloyd's book a few years ago. But my flytying skills aren't the greatest. And with 2 kids, well, I'd rather spend my free time fishing. It would take me a half hour to tie half this stuff, and then I'd manage to screw it up at some point and get really pissed off. I'd like to at least get samples to try them out on some of our central PA streams. Then I could look into tying them. I'd be glad to tie up some green weenies for people. Hahaha.

Mesanomad	July 11th, 2009, 10:14 pm
Watsontown, PA Posts: 9	Apparently, after this evening, all I need is an olive soft hackle. Amazing. This sport can drive you mad.

Shawnny3	July 12th, 2009, 5:47 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1109	I don't know of anyone who sells Lloyd's patterns, though I'd love to see them in a catalog someday. I sat next to Rob Lewis at last year's Flyfishing Show, though, and he develops realistic patterns and then teaches them to overseas workers who then crank them out for him at a reasonable price. I haven't fished any of his flies personally, but they looked to me like pretty nice flies for the price. Here's Rob's site: http://www.robsrealistics.com/index.html -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

Mesanomad	July 12th, 2009, 10:30 am
Watsontown, PA Posts: 9	Those caddis pupae look pretty cool. I might have to check those out. Thanks.

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