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Specimen Discussion

> hook size (and chocolate duns, and old-timey mayfly family classifications)

The Specimen

The Discussion

Warren	April 12th, 2007, 12:30 pm
franklin nc Posts: 4	thats about a size 32 right. i dont think i have any tippet that small
	warren
Troutnut	April 12th, 2007, 1:39 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Hehe, that's a good bit smaller than a 32. I think you'll only need to imitate something this small when nymphing if you're "nymphing" for nymphs in the same sense that you could be "fishing" for fish. If you find a hook that small, you could also use it for the water mite hatch.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Quillgordon	April 12th, 2007, 5:34 pm
Schuylkill County, PA. Posts: 109	Warren, I believe Jason said it was an immature nymph, so it still had some growing to do! I would say tye it in a size #16. Jason, Thomas Ames labeled the 'chocolate dun' ..... Ephemerella needhami. @ bottom of 3rd. paragraph ttp://www.thomasames.com/insects/article/wintercad/wintercad.htm the little Chocolate Dun, Ephemerella needhami. Ernest Schwiebert,Jr. has it in the family 'Baetidae'. Is this still true today, or have they been re-classified? John
	Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g. C/R........barbless
Troutnut	April 12th, 2007, 6:45 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Lots of things have been called "chocolate duns" by somebody at some point, including E. needhami. See my page on the Chocolate Dun common name for the whole list. It seems like almost every mayfly was in the Baetidae at one point or another; at least the species which were first described long ago. Maybe one of the entomologists here can fill in the history on that, but I get the impression maybe all mayflies were considered to be in the Baetidae family sometime in the 1800s before they had been seriously studied. Anyway, Eurylophella has been in the Ephemerellidae family for a long time, but that might not have been the case when Schwiebert was first writing.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Konchu	April 12th, 2007, 7:30 pm
Site Editor Indiana Posts: 505	Ephemerellidae was first recognized as a formal family in 1909. In 1935, it was recognized as a subfamily of the Baetidae. The group was again recognized as a family in 1954. People who put Eurylophella in Baetidae after '54 probably were using an old reference (The Biology of Mayflies. Needham, Traver & Hsu. 1935. Ithaca, NY: Comstock P) and had not kept current with the scattered papers associated with the science. I've seen recent field guides that still put Eurylophella and other "Ephemerellidae" in Baetidae. In the old system, Ephemeridae, Baetidae and Heptageniidae pretty much were it as far as families went. Alas, the days of olde... Jason: If you wish to duplicate this to a new thread, please do so. The subject has drifted (pun intended) from hook sizes.
GONZO	April 12th, 2007, 10:33 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	If John is referring to Schwiebert's Matching the Hatch, it was written in 1955 (the year of my birth) and it does follow the Ephemeridae/Baetidae/Heptageniidae structure of a much simpler time. John, You'll get confused a lot by following that old book, but one thing that will help is to check Taxon's website. He has done taxonomic updates for many popular fly fishing entomologies. If he has one for MtH, you could probably print it out and keep it inside the book for reference. Trust me, that will save a lot of frustrating translation!
Taxon	April 13th, 2007, 1:41 am
Site Editor Royse City, TX Posts: 1350	Gonzo & John- Unfortunately, I don't have taxonomic updates for Schwiebert's Matching The Hatch on my website, simply because I don't have that book. However I do have taxonomic updates for Schwiebert's Nymphs, which would likely include all (or most) of the taxa listed in MtH.
	Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
Quillgordon	April 13th, 2007, 5:57 am
Schuylkill County, PA. Posts: 109	If John is referring to Schwiebert's Matching the Hatch, it was written in 1955 (the year of my birth) and it does follow the Ephemeridae/Baetidae/Heptageniidae structure of a much simpler time. Gonzo........... Yes Anyway, Eurylophella has been in the Ephemerellidae family for a long time, but that might not have been the case when Schwiebert was first writing. Jason..... Thank you. I thought that might be the case. Jason: If you wish to duplicate this to a new thread, please do so. The subject has drifted (pun intended) from hook sizes. Konchu....I mentioned T. Ames and E. Schwiebert,Jr. because Warren posted under the photo of the 'chocolate dun'.....Eurylophella ...... Thanks.....
	Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g. C/R........barbless
Troutnut	April 13th, 2007, 8:13 am
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Well, the subject of hook sizes was a bit of a joke I think, and it has been addressed, so this thread can wander wherever it wants to. However, I will change the title of the thread to reflect the new directions.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
GONZO	April 13th, 2007, 1:10 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	John, Just to be clear (and because I know how confusing this gets), the "chocolate dun" that Ames and Schwiebert refer to, Ephemerella needhami, is still a valid species name in the family Ephemerellidae. The "chocolate dun" of this thread, Eurylophella sp., is a different genus, but also in the family Ephemerellidae. Multiple-use common names are often the cause of confusion. (Think of all the species of various genera that fly fishers call "blue-winged olives.")
Quillgordon	April 13th, 2007, 1:42 pm
Schuylkill County, PA. Posts: 109	Gonzo, Ok...... I didn't see that when I was looking at the different groups, but I see it listed now. Ephemerella needhami. T. Ames called it the 'chocolate dun', but E. Schwiebert didn't. His immatation was a 'dark ephemerella nymph' #16; the dun being the 'red quill'( male hendrickson). So I guess it was a 'dark hendrickson' to him. Ok.......... I feel better now!
	Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g. C/R........barbless

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