Troutnut Forum > Fly Fishing Discussion > Brown trout spots
| Al514 | August 20th, 2007, 9:07 am | |
| Central New York Posts: 38 | I have noticed that most browns have the black and red spots with the blue-ish halo around them, but some browns only have the black spots. I have only seen the difference in bigger trout and was wondering if its something they grow out of, or if it just a genetic difference? Maybe a subspecies or something? Just curious, thanks. | |
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| Shawnny3 | August 20th, 2007, 9:38 am | |
| Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 541 | Too bad Gonzo's not here - I've never seen anyone take so much interest in the coloration of fish and the history and evolution of subspecies. I know he'd give you a great explanation (he goes into it to some extent in the first few chapters of his book). I'm sure there are others (David?) out there who could also help you. But not I. Sorry. -Shawn | |
| Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com | ||
| Wbranch | August 20th, 2007, 10:16 am | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | It may be dependent on where the brown trout is caught. I have a picture of a 23" female I caught last year that has only black spots and a picture of a 21" male I caught last week that has black and red spots and blue halos around the red spots. | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
| Jmd123 | August 20th, 2007, 11:30 am | |
| Posts: 148 | The fact of the matter is, brown trout are extremely variable. This is likely due to genetics - browns were introduced to North America on more than one occasion - as well as diet and stream chemistry. The most colorful browns I have ever caught were in a very small, spring-fed stream in northern MI that also had a cosiderable brookie population. The brownies didn't get very big, though you might see the occasional 15-16-incher that looked like a submarine in those skinny waters! Since I didn't get many big ones out of there, I can only vouch for the little guys. These fish had the most beautiful crimson borders on ALL of their fins - in fact, their adipose fins were COMPLETELY red! I've never seen brownies of any size that had such crisp, vibrant colors on them. The brookies were pretty amazing, too - like little jewels. For the genetic variability of Salmo trutta, check out James Prosec's Trout of the World. I never knew they came in so many different sizes, shapes, and colors! Jonathon | |
| Wbranch | August 20th, 2007, 12:09 pm | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | Here is a good sized specimen with very apparent red spots. (The image file this user tried to include was not found.) | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
| Jmd123 | August 20th, 2007, 1:14 pm | |
| Posts: 148 | That looks pretty typical for most of the browns I have caught. Jonathon | |
| Smallstream | August 20th, 2007, 2:14 pm | |
| State College, PA Posts: 95 | (The image file this user tried to include was not found.) sorry that the picture is kind of poor, but this is probably the most unique looking brown I have caught, from a freestoner it seems that it is literally brown, and the red spots seem more apparent. I have caught some browns in spring creek though that had zero red spots, I might have a picture, but i think that these fish are hatchery escapees. the pic that westbranch posted seems to be what we are used to seeing when catching brown trout, the classic coloring I guess. Its kind of cool to see all of the different colorations. | |
| Softhackle | August 20th, 2007, 3:33 pm | |
| Wellsville, NY Posts: 144 | While I'm no expert in genetics, there may have been, over the years, changes made to the original strains of brown trout originally brought here from Germany. These genetic changes may, indeed, be man-produced through breeding in the hatcheries and or through cross genetically altering to improve the strain in some way shape or form. Habitat and food can also influence the spotting of the fish. They are, as far as I know, all considered Salmo trutta. The first importation of Brown Trout to the USA occurred in 1883 in New York and Michigan. These were imported from Germany, although there are other places that the browns were imported from, mainly Loch Leven. The browns original range was, mostly eastern Europe and the British Isles, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, Austria, to Yugoslavia and tribs of the Caspian Sea; across Russia to Asia and on the very edge of the Himalayas; into Spain and across the Mediteranean to the northern Atlas streams of Algeria and Morocco. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders | ||
| RleeP | August 20th, 2007, 6:47 pm | |
| Posts: 67 | The BT picture Smallstream posted upthread is a ringer for I can't tell you how many wild browns of similar size I've caught in somewhat infertile smaller PA mountain streams. There are browns in the small tribs of lower Penns that look just like that. As do browns from some of the small creeks that come off the flanks of the Bald Eagle and run to the Little J or the Big Bald Eagle. As do browns from some of the tribs of Big Pine, the Driftwood Branch and a dozen others. My vote is that at least some of the coloration in these particular fish is habitat-influenced as much if not more than gentically influenced. And I also believe for the most part (dependent upon location) that they arew wild fish. | |
| Billfisher | August 20th, 2007, 8:23 pm | |
| SE PA, USA Posts: 1 | In SE Pennsylvania in Lower Allen Township is a brook named "Cedar Run". In the 1920's it was stocked with the Loch Leven strain brown stout, supposedly for a fishing trip by President Hoover, who never showed up. The above was reported by the late Charlie Fox, who fished the stream often and wrote about it. Years ago I lived on that stream and caught the descendants of those trout. They had exclusively red spots. Real good fish! Bill | |
| Al514 | August 20th, 2007, 11:00 pm | |
| Central New York Posts: 38 | how do I post pictures in my post? | |
| Martinlf | August 21st, 2007, 12:17 am | |
| Palmyra PA Posts: 907 | Many red spotted browns in the US descended from the German strain, Von Behr. The black spotted strain are Loch Levens, from Scotland. Color variations due to environmental conditions and the mixing of various strains can be found. Gonzo's book explains the two basic strains. | |
| Louis Is it not an art to deceive a trout with an artificial fly? A trout! that is more sharp-sighted than any hawk . . . and more watchful and timorous than your high-mettled merlin is bold! --Izaak Walton The Compleat Angler | ||
| Softhackle | August 21st, 2007, 9:41 am | |
| Wellsville, NY Posts: 144 | Hi Louis, I agree with the sources and descriptions you have posted, however, I have read that they are, in fact, the same fish "Salmo trutta". I am not a taxonomist, however the designation between Loch Leven and German trout was based more on where they were imported from. I've also read that for a long time, there was a number of different 'sub-species" designated, which is probably why there was so much confusion as to the true identity of the brown. It is my understanding that modern taxonomists consider them all one strain-- Salmo trutta. I've also read that when Loch Leven Trout were stocked in Madras (India) in 1868 they developed the red spots of the so-called German Browns. To me, this would indicate that habitat greatly influences their coloration and spotting and that the nomenclature is based on where the trout were located rather than upon a different strain or sub-species. Perhaps I'm incorrect in this, and perhaps Lloyd might, at some point in time, be able to shed more light upon his information. I'd love to find out. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders | ||
| DMM | August 22nd, 2007, 1:54 am | |
| Posts: 141 | The short answer to the initial post, is that genetic differences are the most important factor in color exhibition. While diet can play a role, it is only within the confines of the individual's genetic makeup. To illustrate this point, consider rainbow trout (say Oncorhynchus mykiss irideus) versus golden trout (O. mykiss aguabonita or O. aguabonita depending on the taxonomist). A hatchery rainbow trout given a maintenance diet of fish pellets will not have pink flesh, nor will the eggs be orange, nor will the pink lateral stripe be evident. If however, the diet is supplemented with canthaxanthin, a reddish pigment, the rainbow will exhibit all of the aforementioned color traits. However, no matter how many pigments you feed the rainbow, it will never look like a golden. In terms of brown trout (Salmo trutta), the taxonomy is complex. I believe there are currently 6 recognized subspecies (I'd have to look them up though). However, that is not terribly important in this country, as hatcheries have largely hybridized the stocks. Therefore I find it highly unlikely that anyone would ever catch a "pure" Loch Leven brown, for instance. My point is that you probably are seeing individual variation as opposed to different strains of brown trout. Hope this helps. | |
| David | ||
| TrevorC | August 22nd, 2007, 4:49 pm | |
| Interlochen, Michigan Posts: 22 | Fishing many different streams in Northern Michigan, you can catch a brown in one creek or river, drive 3 miles to a different creek, and the browns in that creek look entirely different (shape, color, markings, etc.) I believe there are many different strains/species of brown trout. I believe that many different species change with their environment and diet. Same scenario as mentioned above: I took a friend of mine trout fishing for the very first time. I did not want to frustrate this friend of mine with a fly rod his first time out, so I took him "Tube dunking" - as we call it around here (worm, barbless hook, no weight, toss it in the river or creek on the upstream side, and let it drift under the road through the tube. Click the bail shut, wait 3 or 4 seconds, then reel in slowly until you feel the fish). I wanted him to just feel the electric shock shoot up his arm and into his heart as he felt his first trout. I had been trying to get this person to go trout fishing for years. The first fish my friend caught was vibrant in color, many spots, slim and slender body size, although the fish was a nice 14 inches long. The creek he caught it in was crystal clear and ice cold. The second fish he caught was a smaller creek 3 miles down the road. The creek was a little darker in color with a marrow bottom. I had the hardest time convincing him to float his worm through the little 14" diameter tube. He thought there was no way a fish would be hiding inside that tube inside this little, muddy, tiny creek. The fish he pulled out of the tube took 5 minutes to land, and was approx. 21 inches long. The brown trout was brown almost black in color. The spots were a different color and barely recognizable (hardly any red spots at all) The fish was blocky / chunky in body size, it almost looked like a different species of trout altogether. I have noticed many different creeks/rivers that the fish look a little different from place to place from Tennessee to Michigan. | |
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