Troutnut Forum > Specimen Discussion > Anyone know your western Drunella species?
The Specimen
Drunella doddsii (Western Green Drake) Mayfly Dun
View 7 PicturesI still haven't got my good camera gear set up, but I wanted to get my first Alaskan bug specimen online, so I photographed this one with my point+shoot in the raft.
View 7 PicturesI still haven't got my good camera gear set up, but I wanted to get my first Alaskan bug specimen online, so I photographed this one with my point+shoot in the raft.Region: Alaska
Collected Jul 8, 2007
Added Jul 19, 2007
The Discussion
| Troutnut | July 19th, 2007, 3:19 pm | |
| Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113 | Which one is this? It's from a south-central Alaskan river. | |
| Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut | ||
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| Konchu | July 19th, 2007, 4:37 pm | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | doddsii??? | |
| GONZO | July 20th, 2007, 12:49 pm | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | Beautiful Western green drake, Jason. Nice job with the point-and-shoot! Konchu, is there any relatively easy way to distinguish between the duns of doddsii and those of grandis? I've read that the middle and rear femora are narrower in the nymphs of grandis and its subspecies when compared to the rather consistent width of doddsii femora. Can this difference be detected in the duns? (I'm asking because Eastern D. lata duns seem to have relatively fat forefemora, reflecting the nymphs in a subtle, but detectable way.) | |
| Konchu | July 21st, 2007, 6:19 pm | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | Duns are always a bit of a crap-shoot. And really, one shouldn't even try with females [I won't go any further with this statement, as both my wife and sister are in the room]. That being said, however, my *guess* about Jason's photo, made whilst I was sitting squarely on my keister at home, was based on the short tails. I seem to remember seeing shorter tails on doddsii than on grandis and its questionable subspecies, or on one of the other common western Drunella, coloradensis. Flavilinea tends to be a less robust dun or spinner, at least in the very few winged specimens I've seen. Pelosa is much less common and also not so robust. The size and shape of femora might be different between Drunella species in the dun stage, but I can't say for sure without checking specimens. Often, it is the case that remnants of some nymphal characteristics can be seen on the duns. | |
| GONZO | July 21st, 2007, 10:46 pm | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | Thanks, Konchu. I won't touch your great line about the females of the species, but I can't resist biting on the "questionable subspecies" comment. More distinctions without a difference? PS--Don't most freshly emerged duns have rather limp, somewhat shortish (?) tails? | |
| Konchu | July 22nd, 2007, 9:34 am | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | good point about the tails. not sure how much change takes place in their length, to be honest. are you making a case for grandis, rather than doddsii? | |
| GONZO | July 22nd, 2007, 10:10 am | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | Not at all, Konchu. My experience with Western Drunella is nil, so I'm just trying to learn a little more about them. Now, about those questionable subspecies . . . . ;) | |
| Konchu | July 22nd, 2007, 12:21 pm | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | Honestly, I learned awhile back that I don't know what I'm talking about more than half the time I open my mouth or touch the keyboard. When I think I know what I'm talking about, Mother Nature throws a curve. I say questionable on the subspp of Drunella simply because I haven't been able to sort it all out yet. Questionable doesn't mean invalid; it just means I think it is something that should be viewed critically, with some skepticism, to try and sort out. Gonzo, you've made me think about some things I hadn't spent much time considering before, so thanks. Looks like we've succeeded into turning this thread into yet another very public private discussion. :) | |
| GONZO | July 22nd, 2007, 1:02 pm | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | Konchu, you battle-scarred old lumper you, I hope you don't mind my efforts to draw every bit of knowledge out of you that I can. An initiate to the perplexing world of entomology/taxonomy could easily get the impression that the Linnaean system is just a clever scam to keep entomologists busy and fly fishers guessing! :) Seriously, I truly appreciate your honesty and humility, and I can identify with everything that you said. I really value your willingness to participate here.Looks like we've succeeded in turning this thread into yet another very public private discussion! :) Yeah, as Roger has pointed out before, I seem to have a knack for that. One would think that at my age I would have learned a little more discretion. But nooo . . . . :) | |
| Troutnut | July 23rd, 2007, 12:58 pm | |
| Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113 | Looks like we've succeeded into turning this thread into yet another very public private discussion. Those are the best kind! | |
| Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut | ||
| Taxon | July 23rd, 2007, 4:17 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | doddsii??? Konchu- Were you able to see something in the photos that would rule out its being Drunella grandis grandis? | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Konchu | July 23rd, 2007, 5:05 pm | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | At this point, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of this being D. grandis. Here's a scary thought: are those lateral filaments shorter than the middle one? Can't quite tell in some of the images. | |
| Taxon | July 23rd, 2007, 7:29 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | Here's a scary thought: are those lateral filaments shorter than the middle one? Can't quite tell in some of the images. I doubt it, but if so, Jason would likely have noticed. However, if you are concerned whether or not the lateral filaments were shorter than the terminal filament, does that mean you aren't yet entirely comfortable ruling out Caudatella? | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Konchu | July 23rd, 2007, 8:06 pm | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | awful chunky for Caudatella, but the generally golden color with darker underparts reminds me of some that don't have the lateral tails all that much shorter than the median one. ...what am i doing wasting all this time on a female dun?????????? | |
| Taxon | July 23rd, 2007, 8:22 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | ...what am i doing wasting all this time on a female dun?????????? Perhaps practicing for retirement? :) | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| GONZO | July 23rd, 2007, 10:12 pm | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | :) :) Konchu, see what happens when you put question marks behind your IDs? If only you'd said "It's doddsii, dammit!" . . . . (Of course, you are too honest and too much of a scientist to do that.) | |
| Taxon | July 23rd, 2007, 11:56 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | Geez Gonzo, the next thing we'll hear is, don't pick on "poor Konchu":):) | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Konchu | July 24th, 2007, 9:29 am | |
| Indiana Posts: 199 | I see how far honesty gets me. | |
| GONZO | July 24th, 2007, 7:36 pm | |
| "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 875 | Geez Gonzo, the next thing we'll hear is, don't pick on "poor Konchu" Well, Roger, I seem to recall someone recently referring to you as "poor Roger." I'm afraid that poor Konchu--just like the rest of us--probably gets what he deserves for posting here. :) Best, Poor Gonzo | |
| Gene | August 30th, 2007, 1:51 am | |
| Posts: 106 | Gentlemen: I'm going to dig out a photo of a similar dun I have from Henry's Fork of the Snake about 20 years ago. It may be doddsii but it sure looks a lot like the Rosey Green Drake (that's what the locals called them years ago) of the Fork...grandis...but once again it's a female...no other comments needed. tight lines and big trout gene www.flyfisher.com | |
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