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Wbranch has attached these 3 pictures to this report. The message is below.
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Report at a Glance

General RegionBellefonte
Specific LocationEnd of Shiloh Road in Canyon area
Time of Day7:15 - 4:15
Fish CaughtLost count after 16. Landed 12 or 13, all wild browns
Conditions & HatchesDidn't see but about a dozen #20 Baetis all day! Maybe it was too sunny. Tried at least eight different nymphs during the day and the only fly that caught fish was a #12 & #14 Walt's Worm. One was natural dark Haretron and the other was Rusty orange rabbit. Hooks were wrapped with .010" lead and bodies ribbed with Fine gold wire.

Details and Discussion

WbranchApril 16th, 2015, 11:46 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2392
Hey, what's the rod? I like it. Looks custom. Shortened grip too?


I built that rod about twenty years ago. There was a rod building/fly tying guy in Allentown, PA that sold everything related to building rods. This was one of his special blanks. His name was (is?) Dale Clemens and he called this blank the "Apogee". It is 8' 2 pc supposedly built for a #5 but I always use a DT 4 on it. The top 2' of the tip is solid graphite and somehow attached to the hollow graphite portion with some sort of tape.

I modified a 7" cigar cork grip to under 6" and sanded in a depression for that ball of the palm of the hand and another thumb depression near the top of the cork.

I sent the fellow who retrieved my sunglasses almost three dozen flies.

Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
PaulRobertsApril 17th, 2015, 12:17 am
Colorado

Posts: 1774
I think I've heard of Dale Clemens and I think even the Aopgee somewhere along the way. Anyway, I like the looks of that grip.

Three dozen! You may have made a life-long Samaritan out of him.
OldredbarnApril 17th, 2015, 12:59 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2585
A good way to rig for nymphing in these weedy streams is to put your "B" shot on the point (terminal end) of a multi-fly rig. Just tie a simple overhand knot on the end to keep your shot from sliding off. You can tie one fly on a dropper or tie in a second dropper to fish a two fly rig. The shot rides near or on the bottom and the flies ride a little above, out of the weeds. The flies drift to the fish first since the shot is attached to the rear. Also there is a direct connection between the fish and rod since the weight is behind the flies - better strike detection. Great rig for Euro nymphing.


Fellas...Is that legal? In 2003 I was fishing with a guide friend of mine and he showed his rig to me as he was building it. It sounds similar. I caught a 20" Brown on it and was describing it to someone and they thought that, here in MI, that might not be kosher.

I don't fiddle too much with more that one fly at a time, so I'm not too clear on the rules even here. Someone explained that there had to be a certain distance between the flies and the weight...

If I ever get any free time I'll try to look into it here...Not sure that this set up is not considered a snagging rig here in MI.

I'll find a rule book and get back on this.

Spence

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
RleePApril 17th, 2015, 7:40 am
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 353
Dale Clemens' rod building business has been gone for some time. Back when I was doing the little Pennsylvania TU magazine/newsletter in the 80's and 90's, they were one of our primary advertisers and supporters.

Clemens himself just passed away last year in North Carolina. He was in his mid-80's. He had a full life; jazz band drummer, USAF pilot, insurance agent and rod building guru.



http://www.thepilot.com/obituaries/dale-p-clemens/article_469a210e-f196-11e3-9d8a-001a4bcf6878.html
RleePApril 17th, 2015, 7:51 am
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 353
>>If I ever get any free time I'll try to look into it here...Not sure that this set up is not considered a snagging rig here in MI.>>

I'm pretty sure there are no legal problems with the rig in Pennsylvania.

Even though I generally tend to see the entire Great Lakes steelhead/salmon fishery in less than favorable terms, one thing that we (thankfully..) did not really have to deal with in PA was the entire snagging thing. Both the coho and chinook programs were a bust in PA in terms of returning fish to the streams. The salmon showed up for a few years and then seemed to vanish. All of which was more than OK with me....
WbranchApril 17th, 2015, 8:17 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2392
Paul wrote;

Three dozen! You may have made a life-long Samaritan out of him.


Well it was worth it to me to get them back. Tying flies is cheap compared to shelling out $150 for a pair of Polaroid's. I would estimate that I have at least 150 dozen dry flies in my collection and over 800 dozen all together. I have been tying so much, for so long, that I have flies in my boxes that I tied over twenty years ago that have never seen water.

Spence wrote;

Fellas...Is that legal?


There are virtually no rules in PA that govern shot placement, or distance, from the fly(s) I almost always use two flies for steelhead and often use three flies when I wet fly/nymph fish. I often use two dry flies, one as an indicator and the other as the one I want the fish to eat. Although I often use the same fly but one will be a #14 and the point fly a #16 or #18.

In NYS on the rivers that enter the Great Lakes there are rules governing distance of shot from the fly/lure. There may also be other terminal tackle rules to try and minimize guys who want to line, lift, or otherwise snatch salmon and steelhead. I gave up the tributary fishing in NYS decades ago due to the blatant unsportsmanlike behavior that is rampant on the Salmon River.

Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
OldredbarnApril 19th, 2015, 2:34 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2585
In NYS on the rivers that enter the Great Lakes there are rules governing distance of shot from the fly/lure. There may also be other terminal tackle rules to try and minimize guys who want to line, lift, or otherwise snatch salmon and steelhead. I gave up the tributary fishing in NYS decades ago due to the blatant unsportsmanlike behavior that is rampant on the Salmon River.



Even though I generally tend to see the entire Great Lakes steelhead/salmon fishery in less than favorable terms, one thing that we (thankfully..) did not really have to deal with in PA was the entire snagging thing. Both the coho and chinook programs were a bust in PA in terms of returning fish to the streams. The salmon showed up for a few years and then seemed to vanish. All of which was more than OK with me....


Matt and Lee...I think you are both correct...Some of our regs evolved from the steelhead/salmon fishery here in Michigan where for quite sometime snagging was legal in some rivers. This is now illegal, but there is a lingering legacy that we are still trying to come to grips with here.

All us anglers here have horror stories of the snagging and other bad practices that still remain here in our State.

My fishing mentor would say, "Big fish brings out the ugly in folks". In May of 1991 he and I were fishing a flies only section of the Pere Marquette (Michigan anglers are familiar with the "Green Cottage" area there) and my friend found a round lead weight with a treble hook hanging from it...This stretch is now no-kill as well, but was flies-only back then.

I remember "fishing" for Kings on the PM some years after. We have a rig we call the slinky. Running line with a swivel on the end with lead weight wrapped in parachute cord burnt closed at the ends to contain the weight attached to the swivel. Below the swivel is your tippet with two flies hanging from this.

The fishing is done to the males hanging below the female working her redd. There are usually 3-4 males below her fighting for position to spawn. They jostle each other around down there pretty aggressively...These males aren't interested in eating. If they actually take the fly it is out of aggression, not to feed. The more common scenario is that as your flies pass through one male chases another right into your rig and you snag him on the shoulder, or worse yet, the ass-end! (Side-note: Do fish have shoulders? :) You know what I mean).

If you hook one near the rear of the fish and he turns around and appears to be heading back to Lake Michigan...Good luck! Best case here is the hook pops out!

As bad as it is...The few times I've been lucky enough to fair hook one of these 30"+ monsters it has been a real treat! Katie-bar-the-door! You think you are running the show, but these fish have swam to nearly the middle of the state and will still kick your butt! It's like hooking the rear end of a buffalo.

Long story, not-so-short, I'm not sure what to do about the persistent snagging issue here in the state. The snaggers seem to know we have an under staffed DNR.

Spence



"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
RleePApril 20th, 2015, 9:04 am
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 353
Hi Spence:

I well remember PA's experiment with salmon in the late 70's and early 80's. It was, to be kind, a zoo. Had it continued, the fishery would have probably hit the wall with access problems much sooner than it eventually did. It isn't Michigan... The combined flow of all the PA Lake Erie tribs would fit in the PM just below the junction with the Baldwin and you'd still have room for the middle Boardman.

Between the shale bowling alley character of the streams and the unsavory nature of much of the salmon chasers at the time, it was far better that things turned out as they did.
PaulRobertsApril 20th, 2015, 9:39 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1774
I lived that experience in NY where it didn't die out. I always attributed PA's direction to be due to a good managemnent decision rather than a failed salmon fishery. Too bad... My rosy thinking had me believing that Gifford Pinchot's legacy was showing through. Probably I needed that then; "zoo" is mighty kind.
WbranchApril 21st, 2015, 12:36 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2392
I will never forget an incident that happened back around 1983. I was at the SR on what is called the "Compactor Pool" and there were a bunch of fly guys and a bunch of spin guys. It wasn't overly crowded but you could readily see there were two angling groups there; the guys who were fishing and the guys who were lining/lifting/snatching/snagging.

There was a guy about 20' to my left and he wasn't even trying to hide his techniques at putting hooks into the salmon. Well he had on a big frigging hook with about a #4 hook and a piece of sponge, then about 24" above the hook he had three #2 split shot! Most fly fishers, who use split shot use sizes from "B" to maybe #7 as the biggest. There are only ten #2 shot to a bag and sixty BB in a bag so you can get an idea of how big they are.

Anyway he got stuck tight on a rock and he cranked down really tightly on his drag and put that damn rod right in front of his face and started pulling and pulling with his stout rod and 30# mono line. I was actually winching as he was pulling and I yelled down to him to stand to the side because if the damn rig breaks loose from the rock it is going to come back like a bullet and hit you in the face.

Well of course he was just too stupid to take my advice and sure enough after pulling with all his strength the rig dislodged from the rock and came flying out of the river at about 85 mph on a bullseye collision course with his face. He was wearing eyeglasses and the three grape sized shot hit him squarely in the left lens of the glasses. The lens exploded into a zillion shards of razor sharp edges and went right into his eye. Immediately blood started to well up in his eye socket and drip down his face. He went over to his friends and said "Do you think one of you should take me to a doctor?" The two buddies looked at him and said, "Nope you'll be fine." I went over to them and told them to do the right thing and forget about the fish for a couple of hours and take your friend to a doctor. They grumbled a bit but sanity began to come to them and they said "Yea, your probably right we should take him to the doctor."

Then of course there were (and probably still are) the guys who may bring a salt water rod with them and stand in ankle deep water but also are carrying one of those huge long handled boat nets and when the salmon are swimming up through the shallows and they can't get a hook into them they just drop the fishing rods and go after them with the net. Who needs the pretense of a fishing rod anyway?

Or how about the three generations of "sportsman" I saw one day on a side channel where the grand pop, father, and son stood about ten feet apart with a big 20# rock over their heads and when a salmon came in front of them they would smash the rock down towards the fish's head in an attempt to crush it's skull and if Pop Pop missed it than Daddy took a throw, and then finally Baby Bear took a heave.

I can't make this stuff up!
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
MiltRPowellApril 21st, 2015, 1:37 am
Posts: 106No Matt,ya cannot make that kinda stuff up.
It is just a shame to see some of the things that go on. I think any guy that has done his share of fishing can state some crazy s--t others do on the streams, creeks,& rivers,and lakes as well.
My first thing I seen this year was a so-called father smack his kid up the back of his head for losing a fish. To make a long story short. I left the hole, I figured if I said anything it would make it worst on the boy later. But I really wanted ta say...
I thought of this later, & talked with my fishing bud. He said, not to long ago you wouldn't have walked away. Yeah, maybe he's right, but I would have been wrong jumping in that. Cause it would have gotten ugly. What meomries of fishing with daddy he gonna have. People, takes all kinds...Really sucked..I even now hate ta share this... And I know why I wished I said something, even though I know I couldn't take back the father's action. wreacked my day, & I let it, cause it sucked....
flyfishingthecreekM.R.P.
OldredbarnApril 23rd, 2015, 12:26 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2585
Matt...It does get ugly from time to time! You and I have seen a lot of hours on a river over our lives and we think we have seen it all. Then some yahoo proves us wrong!

Damn! What a story, sir...

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
PaulRobertsApril 23rd, 2015, 2:51 am
Colorado

Posts: 1774
I could tell some horrifying tales as well of just what big fish can do to people, having spent so much time on big lake tribs chasing trout and salmon. I don't have time write about it now though. Not to say that big fish haven't done weird (mostly asocial or dangerous) things to me too. But I've never succumbed to the urge to break the rules of decency or fair chase (well...almost never).
AFISHNJuly 15th, 2015, 4:01 pm
West Chester,PA

Posts: 8
Fished 7/11/15 just inside the FFparadise gate.Caught 6 in 2 hours on a white stonefly(my own design) size 16
Tom
"..when i'm not AFISHN,I'm a huntin'... "
MartinlfJuly 16th, 2015, 1:35 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2842
Cool, Tom. We had a debate about white stoneflies a while back. I'll see if I can find the thread.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
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