Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > Very cool Brook trout documentary video

BrookymanMarch 7th, 2014, 2:26 am
Banned
Posts: 797
Hey guys this is worth the watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_SyWWTOldY


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
WbranchMarch 7th, 2014, 7:31 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2484
Why does the narrative say the Brook trout is a member of the salmon family at 0:30?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
EntomanMarch 7th, 2014, 8:47 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Brookies are salmonids, Matt. You are confusing family with genus. It's a common mistake when discussing higher orders, especially with us bugcentric types.;)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
WbranchMarch 7th, 2014, 10:31 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2484
Oh, so a char is also a salmonoid?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
BrookymanMarch 7th, 2014, 2:11 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Yup Matt I believe it is.

I am by no means knowledgeable in that area but that is my understanding. This guy has a nice documentary voice. Every night now I watch 1 wildlife documentary before I go to sleep, and there is some awesome stuff on you tube.



Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanMarch 7th, 2014, 8:03 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Yes, though the proper word is salmonid. The family Salmonidae currently contains the following genera:

1. Coregonus - whitefishes (78 species)
2. Prosopium - round whitefishes (six species)
3. Stenodus - inconnu (one or two species)
4. Thymallus - graylings (13 species)
5. Brachymystax - lenoks (three species)
6. Hucho - hucho (five species)
7. Oncorhynchus - Pacific salmon and trout (12 species, including rainbow & cutthroat)
8. Salmo - Atlantic salmon and trout (43 species, including brown trout)
9. Salvelinus - Char and trout (51 species, including brook trout, lake trout)
10. Salvethymus (one species)

Many of these are easily recognizable by us anglers, a few less so, and some are pretty darned obscure.:)

Hope this is helpful.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GusMarch 10th, 2014, 2:23 pm
colorado

Posts: 59
Very informative, Thanks Entoman!
"How do you help that son of a bitch?"

"By taking him fishing"

-A River Runs Through It

www.jsrods.com
PaulRobertsMarch 10th, 2014, 11:07 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Nice vid. Love those brookies.
WbranchMarch 11th, 2014, 12:29 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2484
So Kurt tell me was there ever really a Sunapee trout that I've read about in angling lore in some New Hampshire lakes and if so was it a distinct sub species that is now extinct or was it a variation of an existing species?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
EntomanMarch 11th, 2014, 2:10 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Yes, by common name. From a taxonomic standpoint, it's a little less clear. The chars in general are notorious for controversy and the Sunapee is no exception. Experts can't even agree on the spelling (char, charr)! :)

Some believe it to be (or have been) an isolated form of Arctic Char. Dr. Behnke (who is considered by many the formost expert in this field) considered it a subspecies, so I'll go with that. The taxonomic name for this relic subspecies is Salvelinus alpinus oquassa.

I sometimes wonder if subspecies and variant form designations are often distinctions without a difference, but that is perhaps better left for biologists to quibble over. ;)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
WbranchMarch 12th, 2014, 4:20 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2484
Is the DNA of all trout species different? If it is wouldn't it be less difficult to determine if a particular specimen is a distinct stand alone species, a sub species, or some abberation entirely?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
EntomanMarch 12th, 2014, 8:34 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Yes, but the matter of degree is sometimes an issue.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
WbranchMarch 12th, 2014, 8:51 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2484
So trout DNA is not as discretely different as human DNA? I've seen TV crime shows where they say "Joe Blow is the killer by 1 billion to 1. Real crime series like 48 Hours or "Investigative Discovery".
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
FalsiflyMarch 12th, 2014, 10:22 am
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 656
I sometimes wonder if subspecies and variant form designations are often distinctions without a difference

Could a fish not be considered an individual with genetic traits specific to only itself?
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
PaulRobertsMarch 12th, 2014, 11:31 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
So trout DNA is not as discretely different as human DNA? I've seen TV crime shows where they say "Joe Blow is the killer by 1 billion to 1. Real crime series like 48 Hours or "Investigative Discovery".

I’ve not done DNA work myself so I’m not up on the procedures. But I’ll take a shot at it:

The human genome is enormous but there are regions within that are known to vary amongst different populations, and some that even vary amongst individuals. So the probability that two populations or two unrelated people have the same sequences is unlikely and is discernible statistically.

“Trout” are different for several reasons. Humans are of one species and VERY closely related to one another in the scheme of things. "Trout" are of several genera and many species and over time populations have been isolated enough to create differentiated groups, aka regional variations/races/strains, or even subspecies. The word “race” has fallen out of favor since it really has no good biological definition (being sort of a catch all) and because it has become so politically loaded. (Humans are defined perfectly well as of one species, even subspecies -Homo sapiens sapiens) “Race” has been replaced by “population” "regional variation", “cluster”, “ethnic group”, or "strain" (used in fisheries).

Salmonids however are made up of multiple genera, species, subspecies, and populations that show various genetic differences. Now, how finely we slice things has been a raging debate since classification began. Here’s a current slice for Onchorynchus:


http://salmonid-girl.blogspot.com/2010_12_01_archive.html

But let’s go further bc it gets interesting, and is important to know to appreciate the genetic diversity at finer scales -scales that some courts of law have been unwilling to recognize in matters of fisheries protection.

Genetic differences and adaptive traits within each can be enormously valuable over the long haul. I’ll use the char as an example, although there are as many possible examples as there are critters:

A Sunapee Trout (a char of the genus Salvelinus) is a landlocked char derived from Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus) as were "Brook Trout" (Salvelinus fontinalis). Within “Brook Trout” exist subpopulations (strains) that might or might not look different in hand, but carry different behaviors or physiologic characteristics adapted to the environments they came from. An example was Charles Krueger’s work (my academic advisor once upon a time) comparing a native Adirondack strain of brook trout (suffering from acid rain pollution) with a Canadian strain of brook trout that was naturally adapted to acidic waters. The idea was to see if other strains of brook trout could be used to replace, or enhance survival of, native Adirondack populations if the time ever came to that.

Small scale geographic isolation (distant upper tributaries in a given watershed, say) can yield detectable genetic differences too. Here’s a genetic tree to illustrate diversity within and across two brookie streams:


http://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/young-naturalist-awards/winning-essays2/2012-winning-essays/genetic-analysis-of-the-brown-brook-and-tiger-trout-populations-in-the-lake-champlain-basin

True Brook is a small, highly branched, relatively undisturbed Adirondack stream showing genetic diversity. Great Brook is a larger more disturbed (likely stocked) stream and it shows much less diversity. If a disease, climate shift, geological event, or other selective force swept through these watersheds, the one with the greater genetic diversity has more chances of adapting. But more immediately relevant is the fact that there are subpopulations adapted to live and spawn in more of the watershed than might exist in a watershed with only one strain. This has been a core issue with the degradation of Pacific salmon fisheries.

I once found a tiny trib of a trib of a larger brook and brown trout stream in Central NY that held some uniquely colored brookies. They had a unique Sunapee-like belly coloration –a pale creamy tangerine-yellow and large creamy yellow spotting. I’d post pics but the pics are not with me now. Uniquely beautiful little brookies they were. Always wondered "who" they were, or how old they were: Central NY originals perhaps?

Things get even more complicated as scale descends into critters with short generation intervals, greater geographic isolation, and overall time spent apart. Insects are a good Troutnut-relevant example –what all the fuss is here in trying to follow knowledge as it unfolds.

Essentially, you can look at life on the planet as a giant branching bush (or I like the thought of water trickling into branching patterns as it doesn’t give the false sense that things are vertical/hierarchical in nature) and our view of life in the present (or at any time in prehistory) is a radial slice taken across that bush, momentarily freezing in time the active branching and pruning that’s on-going. We humans have the unfortunate effect of doing a lot of the current pruning.
EntomanMarch 13th, 2014, 2:44 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Excellent, Paul. Thanks. The only thing I can add is that a cross section of the phylogenetic tree isn't quite as clear cut as we'd hope, if you'll pardon the pun. ;) It's still the best analogy though.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
TaxonMarch 13th, 2014, 2:44 am
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1291
Paul-

Thanks for a great explanation.
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: 1 lb 4oz Brownie
In Fishing Reports by Sla9104
3May 31, 2014
by Sla9104
Re: Pictures and specimens from my 2018 Montana trip
In Site Updates by Troutnut
7Jun 25, 2019
by Wbranch
Re: Brookies and their feeding patterns
In General Discussion by GoofusBug
2Jan 12, 2009
by RleeP
Re: pmd hatches in ny?
In the Mayfly Genus Ephemerella by Trouthunter
3Apr 19, 2009
by GONZO
Interesting Article Alert!
In General Discussion by Oldredbarn
0
Re: species taxonomy
In the Mayfly Genus Caudatella by Konchu
3Oct 30, 2010
by Taxon
Re: Video report. Fly fishing Taimen in Siberia
In General Discussion by VladimirR
4Feb 22, 2013
by VladimirR
Re: Dollies North of the Arctic Circle
In General Discussion by Northwestal
1Jan 1, 2016
by Martinlf
Re: So is Ep Infrequens now known as Ep Dorothea?
In the Mayfly Species Ephemerella dorothea infrequens by Wbranch
20Jul 1, 2014
by Crepuscular
Re: Wing color & the book Hatch's
In Ephemerella needhami Mayfly Dun by Brookyman
5May 16, 2014
by Entoman
Most Recent Posts
Re: Fly Tying Vise
In Gear Talk by William99 (Wbranch replied)
Re: Caddis on a zig zag
In General Discussion by TDMunro (Partsman replied)
Re: Rhyacophila betteni group
In Rhyacophila Caddisfly Larva by Creno
Re: This appears to be Dixa sp.
In Dixa True Fly Larva by Creno (Jmd123 replied)
Re: The boys were back in town, Chapter 4 part II
In the Photography Board by Jmd123
Re: The boys were back in town, Chapter 4: new digs, new waters, new fish!
In the Photography Board by Jmd123
Psocodea
In Psocodea Insect Adult by Creno
Rhyacophila hyalinata group
In Rhyacophila vocala Caddisfly Larva by Creno
Re: Don't think it is Gumaga........
In Lepidostoma Little Brown Sedge Larva by Creno (Troutnut replied)
New Instagram account
In Site Updates by Troutnut