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OldredbarnDecember 2nd, 2013, 10:44 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
There, I think I did it. Now what song lyrics should I add....??


Artie...The more absurd the better. :)

Actually, I've been following the thread with some interest and the older one Louis just brought back to life. I'm going to give them a go and I'll get back with you all by the end of the upcoming fishing season.

I was a bit surprised this past summer when my guide on the Madison just used the unimproved clinch...We didn't lose a fish due to knot issues. It may of been a speed issue, get the flies back on the water etc, but it seemed to work. I can't say all the flies he tied on were tied on this way.

I have had the improved clinch slip on me in some unfortunate situations...i.e. lost nice fish...It is a drag to not have faith in a knot.

I'm curious about the mention in this post about the tippet size and the hook diameter. (?) Am I miss reading something? I have always used my tippet size based on the hook size used, usually using the rule of three as a guide.

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
MartinlfDecember 3rd, 2013, 12:24 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3157
It's obviously winter when we can spend this kind of time on tippet and knots. Spence, the observation about tippet size and the size of the hook wire is more of a caution in terms of using the Davy Knot than any recommendation about what size tippet to use with what size hook. Someone might use a fly tied on something such as a Partridge Czech Nymph hook (very heavy wire) with 5X. A Davy will slip, so it's necessary to use a Double Davy or some other knot. That's all. For fine wire dry fly hooks it's not so much an issue, so you purists don't encounter this problem very often, if ever. By the way Gary Borger used to be (and may still be) a big fan of the unimproved clinch, and in some tests--with the right number of twists--it is better than the improved. Lloyd and some others had a bit of discussion on this topic a while back. Since the papers are graded and exams haven't been given yet, I'll dig around a bit to see if that thread can be resurrected too.

OK, found it, all 4 pages, but some of the ideas are outdated now, and it's too much to wade through to get anything worthwhile. When I use a plain clinch, which is very rarely these days, I use seven twists for most tippet sizes. One knot test found that a seven turn clinch is a good bit stronger than a clinch with six turns, and that a six turn clinch beats one with five.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
OldredbarnDecember 3rd, 2013, 10:21 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
Thanks Louis...We are going to have to start calling you the knot whisperer. ;)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
MartinlfDecember 3rd, 2013, 4:51 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3157
Or the knot nut. :) With small flies and light tippets, though, I like to have as much go right as can.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
GutcutterDecember 3rd, 2013, 5:28 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
Louis-
When I use a plain clinch, which is very rarely these days, I use seven twists for most tippet sizes. One knot test found that a seven turn clinch is a good bit stronger than a clinch with six turns, and that a six turn clinch beats one with five.
Regardless of the knot you chose, or the number of turns you use while constructing that knot, you must consider how the knot is tied...
Remember, and I stress this often, it is not the knot itself that fails - they are all pretty good knots, afterall.

Spence-
guide on the Madison just used the unimproved clinch...We didn't lose a fish due to knot issues.
During the tying process, it's the Jerk at the end of the knot that causes it to fail.

Bruce-
I remember a guy that had about 50 spools of that Frog brand tippet swearing that was th best.
I never said or told you that it was the best.
I told you that I was given 4 dozen George Harvey (12 foot 6x) "Slack Leaders" and 3 spools of 4x,5x,6x and 7x for free by a very appreciative patient who worked for Frog Hair.
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
CrepuscularDecember 3rd, 2013, 7:04 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923


Bruce-
I remember a guy that had about 50 spools of that Frog brand tippet swearing that was th best.
I never said or told you that it was the best.
I told you that I was given 4 dozen George Harvey (12 foot 6x) "Slack Leaders" and 3 spools of 4x,5x,6x and 7x for free by a very appreciative patient who worked for Frog Hair.


Tony, take it easy on the guy. When you get to be his age, the memory ain't what it used to be.
LastchanceDecember 3rd, 2013, 7:23 pm
Portage, PA

Posts: 437
Who's Tony?
OldredbarnDecember 3rd, 2013, 9:10 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
Or the knot nut. :) With small flies and light tippets, though, I like to have as much go right as can.


Me too! :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Feathers5December 4th, 2013, 10:02 am
Posts: 287All I have to say is this: Size 30 gray midge attached to Dai Riki 6X tippet. 5 trout were landed,with the largest being 14 inches. Fly was attached with a clinch knot. You guys are making this way too complicated.
CrepuscularDecember 4th, 2013, 10:51 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
All I have to say is this: Size 30 gray midge attached to Dai Riki 6X tippet. 5 trout were landed,with the largest being 14 inches. Fly was attached with a clinch knot. You guys are making this way too complicated.

You are correct Bruce, we often make things more complicated than they need to be. But in my opinion it is not necessarily a bad idea to exchange ideas. And yes we get caught up in the minutiae, but what's wrong with learning a couple new things that just might make things a little more effective or easier for you? Do you think that 14" fish tested the limits of your 3lb test 6X tippet? I don't think you do. Let's try that on a 4 or 5 pound fish. Then we'll talk.

Really, Tony hits the nail on the head when he states that all of these knots are pretty good and whether or not they are tied correctly is really what makes them fail, and tippet material and it's inherent characteristics of suppleness etc. are factors in tying a good knot. I use an improved clinch knot 98% of the time and may have one or two fail during a year but it's not because of the tippet material or the type of knot, it's because I didn't tie it right. To me the ability to possibly eliminate a variable to possibly catch more fish may be worth exploring. Plus it's getting to be winter, and I'm stuck inside right now so why not talk a little fishing.
FalsiflyDecember 4th, 2013, 12:41 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 660
Do you think that 14" fish tested the limits of your 3lb test 6X tippet? I don't think you do. Let's try that on a 4 or 5 pound fish. Then we'll talk.

I am not attempting to answer for Bruce; I’m just inserting an opinion. Assuming that most of us fishing small flies with light tippet have a pretty good feel for the limit which can be placed on the terminal end I don’t think of the size of the fish as being the determining factor. It is not necessarily the size of the fish that is testing the strength of the tippet or knot but the fisherman’s ability to resist a force within that confinement and not exceeding those limits. I’m not arguing against refinement in knots which show improved strength or the development of smaller tippet diameter per lb/test, but the fact still remains that “we”, most often, control whether or not it’s going to break.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
CrepuscularDecember 4th, 2013, 12:54 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
the fact still remains that “we”, most often, control whether or not it’s going to break.

Exactly.

It is not necessarily the size of the fish that is testing the strength of the tippet or knot but the fisherman’s ability to resist a force within that confinement and not exceeding those limits.

I would not disagree with you that the weight of a fish is not the only thing going on. That said, would you agree that the larger a fish, the those limits are reduced? And since a large fish on a small tippet, say a one that exceeds the breaking strength of the tippet, requires an angler to allow "give" a little more to the fish, other factors come into play such as the knot strength, abrasion resistance etc.of the leader and tippet material. That's what I was ineptly trying to illustrate. If that fish takes you under a log and around a boulder and that 6x holds up, then you may have a little more to say about whatever tippet material you are using.
FalsiflyDecember 4th, 2013, 2:58 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 660
That said, would you agree that the larger a fish, the those limits are reduced?

Not necessarily, because those limits are a set value regardless of the size of the fish. If the terminal end has a tensile strength of 3lbs it matters not whether the fish weighs 1lb or 10lbs, once a force of over 3lbs is exerted it breaks.
And since a large fish on a small tippet, say a one that exceeds the breaking strength of the tippet, requires an angler to allow "give" a little more to the fish,

I don’t see it as giving “a little more to the fish”. The giving (that that I have control over) as in playing a fish is not in terms of the size of the fish but how much I must give to keep from breaking off.
If that fish takes you under a log and around a boulder and that 6x holds up, then you may have a little more to say about whatever tippet material you are using.

I agree, and unless I am misunderstanding you, you are referring to abrasion resistance. I think the science is settled on the fact that some materials have better abrasion resistance than others, and yes if we can maintain a resistance under adverse conditions that would weaken a lesser material that is an advantage.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
Kschaefer3December 4th, 2013, 4:01 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
That said, would you agree that the larger a fish, the those limits are reduced?

Not necessarily, because those limits are a set value regardless of the size of the fish. If the terminal end has a tensile strength of 3lbs it matters not whether the fish weighs 1lb or 10lbs, once a force of over 3lbs is exerted it breaks.
And since a large fish on a small tippet, say a one that exceeds the breaking strength of the tippet, requires an angler to allow "give" a little more to the fish,

I don’t see it as giving “a little more to the fish”. The giving (that that I have control over) as in playing a fish is not in terms of the size of the fish but how much I must give to keep from breaking off.



The limits of the line are obviously unchanged, but to me, it seems like Eric is saying your margin for error is greatly reduced on larger fish.

While you still need to "give" the same amount to keep from breaking off, the speed at which a large fish can take you from 1.5 lbs of force to 3+lbs that breaks you off is much different than on a small fish. If you are not prepared for this difference while fighting, the larger fish has a much better chance of breaking you off. You could keep a 40+ lb fish attached to 6X tippet for some time, but to ever bring it in is a different story.
FalsiflyDecember 4th, 2013, 5:13 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 660
The limits of the line are obviously unchanged, but to me, it seems like Eric is saying your margin for error is greatly reduced on larger fish.

the speed at which a large fish can take you from 1.5 lbs of force to 3+lbs that breaks you off is much different than on a small fish.

Yes in that respect I agree 100% that your reaction time can be a significant disadvantage. Thus we do "give a little more to the fish".

Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
LastchanceDecember 4th, 2013, 6:09 pm
Portage, PA

Posts: 437
All I have to say is this: Size 30 gray midge attached to Dai Riki 6X tippet. 5 trout were landed,with the largest being 14 inches. Fly was attached with a clinch knot. You guys are making this way too complicated.

You are correct Bruce, we often make things more complicated than they need to be. But in my opinion it is not necessarily a bad idea to exchange ideas. And yes we get caught up in the minutiae, but what's wrong with learning a couple new things that just might make things a little more effective or easier for you? Do you think that 14" fish tested the limits of your 3lb test 6X tippet? I don't think you do. Let's try that on a 4 or 5 pound fish. Then we'll talk.

Really, Tony hits the nail on the head when he states that all of these knots are pretty good and whether or not they are tied correctly is really what makes them fail, and tippet material and it's inherent characteristics of suppleness etc. are factors in tying a good knot. I use an improved clinch knot 98% of the time and may have one or two fail during a year but it's not because of the tippet material or the type of knot, it's because I didn't tie it right. To me the ability to possibly eliminate a variable to possibly catch more fish may be worth exploring. Plus it's getting to be winter, and I'm stuck inside right now so why not talk a little fishing.


I agree, Eric. There's nothing wrong with a discussion. I enjoy them, too, because I'm learning. I wasn't complaining. I was just pointing out that at times we make things more complicated. I'm on this site because I enjoy discussion.
EntomanDecember 5th, 2013, 1:28 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
The modern co-polymers and fluoros are all pretty strong and limpness in the smaller sizes is usually fairly good as well. For me, the important characteristics are fishability, durability, and knot performance. There are a few out there that don't like my knot tying ability or score after a fish or two. Had a few experiences with some brands that wouldn't straighten even fresh off the spool! I won't put up with tippet that looks like a pig's tail behind the fly.

I've had bad results with mixing brands and materials so pretty much stay with the same all the way through when using knotless tapered leaders. Rio tippet is excellent, but their leaders are too butt heavy for me. For stream fishing I use the 7 1/2 and 9 ft Umpqua co-polymers in 4x & 6x. These four are the only co-polymer ones I carry. The butts can be extended with 25 lb maxima (4x) and 20 lb (6x) without gain in diameter or change in flex profile. Tippets from 3x (after trimming back the leader) through 7x or finer are covered as well as lengths from 7 1/2 to 20 ft. The same brand of fluoro works well when knotted to the leader material but other brands will often cut it like butter. I also carry a few 9 ft full fluoro leaders for some subsurface spring creek situations.

G-max and other seagar formulas are still my favorite fluoro for indicator rigs. Many 20 fish days (16" - 20") on the Lower Sac without a fly knot change are testaments to that material.

For large trout flies and steelhead, I'm still a Maxima guy. Nothing beats it, especially when it's cold.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanDecember 5th, 2013, 2:53 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
The discussion on big vs. smaller fish taxing tippet material is interesting. My take is that while Allan is correct from a pure physics standpoint, I have to go with Eric on this one. A fish that outweighs or approaches the test strength of the tippet material creates stresses of an entirely different order of magnitude. It will get you to the "threshold" faster and keep you there longer. You also can't move it at will when it's stationary. A little coaxing is required. Usually, smaller fish only tax tackle when moving away. A big fish can break off with a simple shake of the head if too much pressure is applied trying to coax movement toward the angler or slow down a run. Bottom line is skills required to "keep up" with the fish are tested to a much greater degree.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
MartinlfDecember 5th, 2013, 4:27 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3157
Kurt, which tippet knot are you using (I'm wondering about the fluoro cutting the Umpqua leaders)? I'm pretty sure a ligature knot won't cut the leader whatever tippet you use, though it's something of a pain to learn. But, if you're up for some tests . . . :) And which Maxima--the brown stuff?
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
EntomanDecember 6th, 2013, 1:23 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Louis,

It doesn't really matter which Maxima type as both seem to fish the same. For aesthetic reasons I go with the ultra-green as it matches the leader butts perfectly. I use the double surgeons for the tippet.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
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