Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > August ephmerellid

CrepuscularAugust 26th, 2013, 8:45 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Sorry for the crappy photos. not sure what was going on other than this little guy did not want to sit still. Hindwing missing on the port side.

6.5 mm. South Central PA







TaxonAugust 26th, 2013, 4:00 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1294
Hi Eric-

I believe it to be an Attenella attenuata male subimago.
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
EntomanAugust 26th, 2013, 5:58 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Seems too dark to me, Roger. How about Serratella serrata (Little Sooty Olive), guys? Based on the eye color and leg markings, my other guess would have been Eurylophella bicolor (Little Dark Claret, Schwiebert) but the 9th seg is too short.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularAugust 26th, 2013, 6:56 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
I love posting these because my best guesses (and that's all they were, based on size) were both of those. ha. And I wasn't sure of either. I'll see if I can get an imago. The Eurylophella crossed my mind too but like you pointed out, the 9th is seems to be too short. I even thought about D. lata.
PaulRobertsAugust 26th, 2013, 10:09 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
I'm thinking (guessing) Serratella too.
TaxonAugust 26th, 2013, 11:34 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1294
This structure (tubercle?) on the pronotum may provide a useful clue as to genus:

Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
CrepuscularAugust 27th, 2013, 7:58 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Cool Rodger. Where is that character described? Do you think the elongated forceps of the Attenella sp.(McCafferty 1977) are there in the sub imago? If they are, the terminal (3rd) segments of this one are not elongated. It seems to me that this elongation is such that it would be there even in the subimago. But I don't have any experience with this, so I'm flying by the seat of my pants here.

TaxonAugust 27th, 2013, 10:40 am
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1294
Hi Eric-

Where is that character described?

Don't recall having encountered a description of it.

Do you think the elongated forceps of the Attenella sp.(McCafferty 1977) are there in the sub imago?

I would think so, but the resolution of your photos is not adequate to clearly enough see the forceps in order to make any useful comparisons.
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
CrepuscularAugust 27th, 2013, 11:16 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919

I would think so, but the resolution of your photos is not adequate to clearly enough see the forceps in order to make any useful comparisons.


No I know, but you'll have to take my word for it, I looked at it under my scope. It's not elongated.
TaxonAugust 27th, 2013, 6:58 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1294
Hi Eric-

Ah, here is an image of Serratella serrata (Ephemerella sordida) genitalia from TBOM. Did it look more like that?

Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
KonchuAugust 27th, 2013, 9:15 pm
Site Editor
Indiana

Posts: 496
Don't know about timing in PA, but it looks alot like Teloganopsis deficiens, off the top of my head. If this were earlier in the year, I'd have some other suspects. The leg markings and dark purple color look like T. d. I'd have to check the size. Are the tails really unbanded? Some of the apparently darker middle abdominal terga would be characteristic of some Serratella spp., though.
CrepuscularAugust 27th, 2013, 9:33 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Hi Eric-

Ah, here is an image of Serratella serrata (Ephemerella sordida) genitalia from TBOM. Did it look more like that?



Yes terminal segment definitely small like that.
CrepuscularAugust 27th, 2013, 9:34 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Don't know about timing in PA, but it looks alot like Teloganopsis deficiens, off the top of my head. If this were earlier in the year, I'd have some other suspects. The leg markings and dark purple color look like T. d. I'd have to check the size. Are the tails really unbanded? Some of the apparently darker middle abdominal terga would be characteristic of some Serratella spp., though.


Tails are unbanded. 6.5mm
EntomanAugust 27th, 2013, 11:10 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Don't know about timing in PA, but it looks alot like Teloganopsis...

Hmm... My initial impression as well with those dark wings, but discounted the possibility over size and tail maculation. Can they get this big?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanAugust 28th, 2013, 2:25 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Taxon -

This structure (tubercle?) on the pronotum may provide a useful clue as to genus...

Awhile back I remember posting on this character in the hope that it would prove as useful for ephemerellids as it is with baetids. Unfortunately, I haven't come across any evidence to date that it is. Hopefully Konchu will address this.

BTW - I'm not sure that isn't an artifact in the photo. It looks like it may just be an area of the suture that caught more light against the dark background of the mesonotum for some reason.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
MartinlfAugust 28th, 2013, 9:10 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2902
Looks like Teloganopsis to me. See the "Black Quills" thread.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
PaulRobertsAugust 28th, 2013, 9:47 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Teloganopsis??!! Wake me in a century.
EntomanAugust 28th, 2013, 11:55 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Paul - Yeah, perhaps Luke can explain why the need for a genus name so seemingly unrelated and strange sounding for an ephemerellid. My assumption is that our bug was found to be more closely allied with an old world genus already named. Teloganopsis single nearctic species was (until very recently) known as Serratella deficiens (prev. Ephemerella deficiens). Recent nomenclature changes aside, in my book your initial opinion is valid regardless the species it may turn out to be.:)

Louis - The two are very similar dark little ephemerellids and telling them apart is difficult. To make it even more difficult, they are apparently often found hatching together where their ranges overlap. It is my understanding that T. deficiens is usually well under 6 mm while S. serrata is usually well over. The former is described as being a little darker overall (almost black wings as duns) with pale legs and ringed tails. The latter is described as having more somber eyes, darker legs and with plain tails (the sordida form). Both can have subtle leg maculation. Though these are spinner descriptions, they probably still apply. Don't know about the other characters but I believe the presence or absence of tail annulations are diagnostic between the two.

Anyway, that was the rationale for my guess.:) What I do know is that it's a small dark ephemerellid. Little Dark Red Quill is what I'd call it.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularAugust 29th, 2013, 8:56 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
I know Louis has experience with Teloganopsis. My initial reaction was that this seemed too big and too light. But like I said, he's got first hand experience with a fishable hatch of these Ephemerellids. I have no experience with them. So if I had posted this a few years ago Seratella would have been correct. ;)
MartinlfAugust 29th, 2013, 10:56 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2902
Kurt, and Eric, thanks. I don't have experience with S.serrata, and actually hadn't heard of it. So perhaps this bug is not a Telo. Does anyone have any information on the range of S.serrata? I know Teloganopsis hatches around here, but haven't ever heard anyone mention S.serrata. That doesn't mean they aren't around, and if they are it may explain some of the size variation I mentioned in the "Black Quills" thread. On the water the light legs of Teloganopsis look almost white at times. Is this true of S.serrata? The legs in Eric's photo looked pretty light to me. But Eric says the tails are unbanded, so that seems to knock out Teloganopsis. And I do typically see them earlier. Does anyone have hatch date info. for both species? It seems it may be S.serrata after all?

"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
Page:12

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: confusing local names+
In Ephemerella needhami Mayfly Dun by Gutcutter
4Dec 22, 2009
by Oldredbarn
Re: Ephemerellinae
In the Mayfly Family Ephemerellidae by GONZO
7Oct 4, 2008
by GONZO
Re: PA Contingent Gathering
In General Discussion by JOHNW
16May 28, 2010
by JAD
Re: Serratella micheneri nymphs
In the Photography Board by Millcreek
2Oct 13, 2014
by Millcreek
Re: Emerger
In the Mayfly Genus Serratella by Martinlf
6Jun 11, 2009
by GONZO
Re: Now to tie a Baetis Dun Imitation
In Female Baetis Mayfly Dun by DarkDun
3Jan 16, 2007
by Martinlf
Re: Stumped
In the Identify This! Board by Bfdfisher
3May 27, 2011
by PaulRoberts
Re: Lepto question
In the Mayfly Family Leptophlebiidae by JasonM
1Mar 7, 2010
by Taxon
Re: Stupid damselfly!
In the Insect Order Odonata-Zygoptera by Troutnut
4Jul 1, 2007
by Litobrancha
Re: Maybe Epeorus
In Male Nixe inconspicua Mayfly Dun by Troutnut
16Sep 22, 2011
by Oldredbarn
Most Recent Posts
Re: Fly fishing etiquette
In General Discussion by Red_green_h (Jmd123 replied)
Re: Site updates from September 8, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (RleeP replied)
Re: Looking for advice
In Fly Tying by OldHasBeen
Re: Site updates from September 13, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Site updates from September 11, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Site updates from September 10, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)
Re: Ice dub versus sparkle dub
In Fly Tying by Brian314
Site updates from September 4, 2019
In Site Updates by Troutnut
Re: Ophiogomphus occidentis
In the Identify This! Board by Millcreek (Troutnut replied)
Re: Summer to fall - What's happened to the fishing :)
In General Discussion by TDMunro (Partsman replied)