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> > March Brown/Quill Gordon?, Page 2

JohnNY has attached these 8 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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This last photo is the intermittent stream where these (what are they?) bugs live, breed and die.
I JUST saw that I was PM'd last JUNE asking for this photo... Sorry...
This last photo is the intermittent stream where these (what are they?) bugs live, breed and die.
I JUST saw that I was PM'd last JUNE asking for this photo... Sorry...
JohnNYJune 11th, 2013, 10:33 pm
Posts: 15So I posted some more photos.
The last one is to show the "truest" color of the bugs on white paper. They were ALL taken on white paper, but the lighting/camera, well... the last one is the best representation of the color.

I hope the new pics help.
BrookymanJune 11th, 2013, 10:45 pm
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OK I know now for sure the genus and species and they love that kind of water.

They are Stenacron I see the black spots in the mid area of the forewing towards the front edge. I will look at my specs to ad the species in a half hour. I spent all winter studying this group in great detail.
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BrookymanJune 11th, 2013, 10:55 pm
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I almost said awhile back in this thread if they had black spots in the wings they would likely be Stenacron but didn't cause Kurt might have thought I lost my mind.LOL. :-)

With no marks on the face, no pleura streaks, no spiracle marks, having thin black transverse markings and being 9mm it makes it.

Stenacron interpunctatum however this strain of interpunctatum was referred to as Stenacron hetrotarsale in it former terms. So we refer to it as just a Stenacron interpunctatum now. This explains the larger size beyond the true Stenacron interpunctatum that is 7.5 mm's.

Mack.
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OldredbarnJune 11th, 2013, 11:31 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
Wonderful pics John...I need to remember my camera the next time out!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
JohnNYJune 11th, 2013, 11:37 pm
Posts: 15So I'm looking at the fourth photo down here: http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/595
and The head/eye placement seem a bit different.

Everything else looks good... but does the color of the tails matter at all?

Thanks for your diligence!


And thanks, Spence!
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 2:46 am
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The coloring of the tails could be from many things some of my Stenacrons here have very dark tail then lighter all in the same species. Because they are known for interbreeding they can all be very different.

http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/595

There are allot of differences but the black stained cross veins are of the genus stenacron only. Through all historical record the criteria I listed for the details only leads to the former species Stenacron hetrotarsale now called Stenacron interpunctatum.

Its not to say that this isn't a version that is unfamiliar. For example the largest male Stenacron in the literature is 11mm with a wing size of 13 mm.

Last year I dissected 1 male Stenacron adult with a 13mm body, and a 15 mm wing according to everything my guy does not exist. This is one of the reasons I am personally studying them. They are mostly ignored because they tend to live in waters that are not really all that clean of pollutants. Not to say they do not live in clean water because they do. Mixed with interbreeding they are a complex bunch. I live in Stenacron alley I have more per capita than anybody else on the continent. So I made them my little project.

Yours does have some very unique detail I like that.

Mack.


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EntomanJune 12th, 2013, 1:42 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Good thread and interesting critter...:)

The latest pictures show that it clearly isn't Spinadis. The fore tarsi are too long. As for Stenacron, they can have wide set eyes, but I'm only seeing some slight thickening of the crossveins below the bullae in one of the pictures. Even those are not coming close to connecting. In all the other photos there's no differentiation between them and the rest of the crossveins. The long pronotum and lack of spiracular marks on the abdomen are also a bit troubling, as are the lack of bands or spots on the femora. Can anybody contribute some input regarding Leucrocuta and Macdunnoa? I think they are wide eye set critters as well. If I was home...:)

A good close up of the fore tarci would be helpful, John. Particularly the first few segments below the tibia.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 2:41 pm
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Hi Kurt.

Leucrocuta and Macdunnoa?


I will look around at the Macdunnoa today and see what I can find for comparisons.


I looked at all the Leucrocuta sp I could find and they didn't line up either as far as physical characteristics as much as the Stenacron does. As to Stenacron I am seeing black blotches in the cross veins in the R1-R2 in the bulla range in figure 4 & 7. The other feature that I so far have only seen in Stenacron is the stigma stain area the stain extends around the apex of the wing. To the best I could find there were only two former Stenacron sp that had that feature, oddly enough the former S hetrotarsale was not one of them. So there is another wrench in the wheel. All though they are not connected as we commonly see in that genus the black bulla stain seems to be visible at least to me. They are tough to see.

I have had 3 this year were the black stain is very small and I thought they were Mac's. I have also had a large extinction of Stenacron in the waters where I normally collect 100's in and I only caught 1. And now in a area where I have never found any I caught about 40 larva & adults.


Mack.
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JohnNYJune 12th, 2013, 2:52 pm
Posts: 15
A good close up of the fore tarci would be helpful, John. Particularly the first few segments below the tibia.


So, that's the front leg below the knee, right? :)

I'll TRY, but those are TINY. Are you looking for color or structure?

That is, do you think taking a photo on a white background or a slightly colored(darker) one would be best?
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 2:54 pm
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Yup the middle area.
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EntomanJune 12th, 2013, 3:39 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi John,

What I'm looking for is a comparison of the 1st and 2nd segment lengths of the tarsi (those closest to the tibia). The tarsus begins at what looks like the third leg part. The first long part is the femur, the second long part below the "knee" is the tibia, the third part (made up of five hard to see segs) is the tarsus.

Mack -

Didn't we discuss one of your Stenacron specimens last year where thickened crossveins below the bullae weren't obvious?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 4:03 pm
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Posts: 797
Yes Kurt we did to so degree, oddly enough that was I believe a Hetro :-)
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EntomanJune 12th, 2013, 4:52 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Finally got to a computer that can enlarge your photos, John. I agree with Mack that the specimen next to the ruler and the one in the photo next to the one upside down clearly show the requisite "thickened in the middle" cross veins in the cells below the bullae. Stenacron interpunctatum is the right call. Good job, Mack. I have no explanation for why the specimen in the first photo doesn't have them, nor can I explain the long prothoraxes.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 5:13 pm
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Posts: 797
Thank You Kurt that means allot to me. There are some strange thing going on with stenacron lots of oddities. Like my male with a 15 mm wing what is that about.


Kurt do you know of a author that has worked on the Macdunnoa? I would still like to read about it.


Mack.
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EntomanJune 12th, 2013, 5:34 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Sorry Mack, I'm a long way from my library and only have an iphone most of the time to work with (tough, to say the least). That's why I was asking for support from you guys on Macdunnoa!:)LOL Off the top of my head, try Flowers or one of the many papers with McCafferty on the team.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 5:39 pm
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Posts: 797
I will poke around at it. You sparked another flame in me especially because we are dealing with my famous Canadian Dr J H . McDunnough.:-)

You are a great mentor.


Mack.
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BrookymanJune 12th, 2013, 5:52 pm
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OH man funny thing about a big library of lit. You nailed it Flowers 1982 and I already have it in my binders. I really need to make a master index to all these papers :-)

Mack.
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JohnNYJune 13th, 2013, 8:56 am
Posts: 15SO...Stenacron interpunctatum it is!?!

The length of the "neck"...

That would be the "prothorax" I take it?

It is substantialy longer than what I see in the specimen I see here on the website.

I obviously can't compare actual lengths, but as a percent of the width of some structures there in the prothorax/head, my specimen's measurements (ratio of the length of some structures to the width of some)is 24-35% greater than the one specimen shown here on this website.

Is that just "normal" variation that one might find within ANY species of bug? These guys are kind of living off the beaten path; could this just be a genetic variation due to natural selection and genetic isolation over a few decades?

Thanks you for ALL of your efforts to satisfy MY curiosity. If you're not careful, I'll be posting another mystery... Hopefully, a less dificult one...
BrookymanJune 13th, 2013, 11:40 am
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Posts: 797
Hi John.

Yes the prothorax is the neck area. Yes it is Stenacron interpunctatum. In between all the joints of the body there are extension sections for flexibility. Looking close at the front area of the prothorax they have an area that can look like a turtle neck shirt for extension. That is most often covered by the head.But it is not to say that the prothorax is not longer that normal. Typically it is the photos viewpoint that can be misleading. However yours do look like they are looking downward meaning the head is tilted forward and down exposing that area. You can see it in picture 3 & 5 in front of the smoky area.

You may have noticed that until it becomes really necessary I try to write a response in common words. There are people who do not know nor might not want to know the biological terms. Biological words are the best words to use though. Mostly because they are very well known and not misunderstood.

It was a little over a year ago I knew nothing not even biology or its words. So I very much remember being a newbie. This goes to the point that anyone can get this stuff if they wish because you have some really excellent and very knowledgeable people here. Kurt has been my mentor all year and I could never thank him enough. Roger has a method of writing with such class every word is very well chosen and placed.

We love these challenges with the bugs and wouldn't have it any other way.

These enigmas are the key to learning.

Mack.
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BrookymanDecember 24th, 2013, 3:04 am
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I am not so sure that I was right with this one as Stenacron interpunctatum interpunctatum looking closer I am now just wondering if the second one is not Stenacron carolina.

S carolina is noted as having smaller very wide spread eyes, and dark dusky tails. And unlike the former S heterotarsale having no dark markings on the pleura. The other thing is all of the segments appear to be transversely wrapped, dorsally and ventrally with a very faint smoky tinge at the posterior margins as described by Traver. The claspers are also dusky instead of the more common yellowish fleshy tones. It also has a faint dark mark on the sublateral side of the pronotum and the former S heterotarsale has no pronotum marks see the 4th photo. Open this photo to full size of the original picture Jonny loaded to see the segmental shading more clearly.



Just some new thought's on this one. What do you guys think ???.

Mack.
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