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EntomanApril 26th, 2013, 2:51 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanApril 27th, 2013, 4:25 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
For example, here's a bit from one journal entry for late May on the Letort: "Noticed some larger 14?? tan caddis with green body. Pretty patterned wing. Long antenna. Green egg mass." Perhaps Eric will have some idea, but I was clueless as to what this might be.


Eric is mostly clueless but maybe a Limnephillid? Possibly Limnephilus rhombicus sorry I don't have a photo for the adult but here is one http://bugguide.net/node/view/190882/bgimage

Edit- I re-read your post Louis, and those Limnephilids are probably a little bigger than a #14. so it could possibly be Neophylax, but they may be a little smaller than #14. So like I stated before Eric is pretty much clueless...

Could this be one of your more obscure Grannom species? Some species males (like B. appalachia) could be described that way. I don't know anything about a few of the brachycentrid taxa I see in PA distribution records.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
MartinlfApril 27th, 2013, 8:54 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2958
It's hard to know, especially given my very limited knowledge of caddis and the time that's passed since the sighting. From what I remember and have seen of apple caddis on the Delaware, that bug was larger, had a much more patterned wing, and longer antennae than B. appalachia, but I really just don't have a clue of a clue.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
MartinlfApril 27th, 2013, 9:26 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2958
Spence:

Our late guru, Carl Richards finally decided to straighten us out here by explaining that what we thought, for years, was Chimarra was actually Brachycentrus lateralis. The Chimarra is more like a #20-#22...Our old hatch charts had the Little Black Caddis listed at #16-#18...Plus the really little Black Caddis hatches later in the year here than what we had listed...



Kurt:

I think Spence is right about this. I seem to remember other threads were Gonzo commented on this as well (including a lament on the misuse of the common name Black caddis). Still Grannom, just a different species if I remember right.



And a comment from Gonzo in an older Grannom thread:

Here's my current breakdown for important PA species:

Brachycentrus numerosus--Penn's Creek Caddisfly, Dark Grannom, Dark Shadfly; adults have dark-mottled wings and dark blackish green bodies; pupae usually dark with green lateral stripes and dark wingcases.

Brachycentrus lateralis--Striped Grannom, Dark Grannom, Black Caddis; adults have dark wings and pupae are typically dark olive with tan lateral stripes and dark wingcases.

Brachycentrus nigrosoma--Little Dark Grannom, Little Black Caddis; adults/pupae are smaller and darker than numerosus.

Brachycentrus appalachia--Apple Caddis, Light Shadfly, Light Grannom; adults have very light tannish or grayish wings (almost white when freshly emerged) and apple green bodies; pupae are apple green with tan wingcases.

(Brachycentrus solomoni and incanu are also found in PA)

Most "grannom" activity in PA occurs from mid-April to mid-May. During that time, if you carry imitations of dark and light grannoms (adults and pupae) in sizes #14-16, you should have most bases covered.

The collecting record shows two Brachycentrus spp. for Huntingdon County--B. numerosus and solomoni. The record for Centre County shows four--B. numerosus, solomoni, lateralis, and the related Adicrophleps hitchcocki. And this is not including the smaller, but closely related Micrasema--five species listed for Centre County, and two for Huntingdon. Collecting records are often incomplete for any given watershed, but this does not mean that a species is not present. Neighboring Blair County, for example, has no Brachycentridae recorded; but, because it sits beside the heaviest concentrations of Brachycentrids in the state, I have to assume that this is just due to an incomplete record.


What first caught my attention here was his mention of

Brachycentrus nigrosoma--Little Dark Grannom, Little Black Caddis; adults/pupae are smaller and darker than numerosus..


But he also mentions

the related Adicrophleps hitchcocki


--whatever that is, and he goes on to note

And this is not including the smaller, but closely related Micrasema--five species listed for Centre County, and two for Huntingdon.


Gonzo says that collecting records may be incomplete, so one of these might be what my other friend (Mike) was talking about. Or not. Mike did say that the larger "Grannoms" tended to cluster in bushes, while the smaller "black caddis" clustered on rocks, bridge abutments etc. I took it all in with a grain of salt, but his source, the owner of a fly shop that has been on the river longer than I can remember, seems potentially credible.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
PaulRobertsApril 27th, 2013, 10:16 am
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Wow. Great thread. I believe, we only have 2 Brachy. sp. here. Simplifies things. But that could change as people look further.
OldredbarnApril 27th, 2013, 12:18 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
Mike did say that the larger "Grannoms" tended to cluster in bushes


Louis...That morning that Tony, Eric, and I fished the Yellow Breeches the Grannoms were doing just that, every branch over hanging the river had them on them...This was the day when we met up with you latter that evening.

If you shooked the limb hundreds flew up. Instead of playing I should of taken a photo...It would of qualified as caddis porno...I might of been sent off jail.

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
EntomanApril 27th, 2013, 2:03 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Sounds like Brachycentrus nigrosoma might be the species that your fly shop operator is talking about, Louis.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
SayfuApril 27th, 2013, 6:13 pm
Posts: 560I was on the famed Henry's Fork yesterday, and ate a lot of Grannom's. There were clouds of them, and they were on the water all day long. Only small rainbows took them, and not that many of them surfacing. Caught two decent rainbows all day, and three small ones using a copper beadheaded PT softhackle. April, and the rainbows could have been spawning in tribs. There is no spawning gravel on the stretch that I floated.
GutcutterApril 28th, 2013, 7:12 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
I was on the famed Henry's Fork yesterday, and ate a lot of Grannom's.

Is it true that they taste like chicken?
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
SayfuApril 28th, 2013, 8:45 pm
Posts: 560I picked out what I thought were the bright green bodies between my teeth. But their bodies were black. It was the green egg balls that were sticking to my teeth.
EntomanApril 28th, 2013, 9:16 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Is it true that they taste like chicken?

Reminds me of a story...

A patron sees snake on the menu in the exotic category. When asking the waiter what it tastes like the reply was, "Ummm, tastes a lot like chicken to me." The patron thought for a second and ordered, "Then bring me the chicken." :)


And so winds down a great thread....
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GearTheoryMay 1st, 2013, 10:11 pm
Indianapolis

Posts: 12
Jimmy just calls it the Grannom / Black Caddis. Size 18... and that's what I remember usually well over with by Mother's day. By then I thought it's what we called Popcorn Caddis, they're all over the place on sunny days, continuously for weeks...

I think we need to break through the Caddis fishing barrier on the Ole-Au Snoble Spence. Seems every one gets stumped by these hatches, prolly cause no one really fishes it right...

I've got a mess of the Iris caddis style whipped up..Henny spinner up front, diving caddis 18' off the tail end of that is my Gear, we totally miss these mostly because we are all a bunch of mayfly snobs is my Theory :)
Gear & Theory
MartinlfMay 2nd, 2013, 7:04 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2958
Had some good luck with the Iris Caddis during an emergence lately.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
OldredbarnMay 2nd, 2013, 10:24 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
Mike...Fishing with Willy I wasn't allowed to miss anything! :) I knew I'd hear about it once we got together on the river after. "Did you catch the popcorn caddis hatch?!" "You had something to cover that little Baetis, right?" As he was asking he usually had a box open and was handing me something..."Open your hand Dutchman, don't look at it and give it back to me when we're done." :)

"Whatever you do, Spence, don't show it to Mikey!"
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
MartinlfApril 6th, 2015, 9:14 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2958
OK, here's the thread I meant to bump up. More on Grannoms, and an excellent photo by Eric, plus some patterns.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
AfishinadoApril 7th, 2015, 7:21 am
SE PA

Posts: 71
I would like to share these posts by Gonzo from the past. I combined several posts and use them as a reference for Grannom info.



Grannom Caddis Info:

Grannom, American Grannom, Shadfly, Apple Caddis, Mother's Day Caddis, and Black Caddis are all common names applied to Brachycentrus species. Mother's Day Caddis is the most common Western nickname for Brachycentrus occidentalis, a Western "grannom," but I have also heard this name applied generally to "grannoms" here in the East.

In PA, it is useful to think of "dark grannoms" and "light grannoms." The species your flies are imitating are more typical of the dark grannoms. The "apple caddis" is a light grannom. Most of the important (PA) Brachycentrus species have overlapping hatch periods, so either dark or light imitations (or both) can be called for, depending on the stream.

Here's my current breakdown for important PA species:

Brachycentrus numerosus--Penn's Creek Caddisfly, Dark Grannom, Dark Shadfly; adults have dark-mottled wings and dark blackish green bodies; pupae usually dark with green lateral stripes and dark wingcases.

Brachycentrus lateralis--Striped Grannom, Dark Grannom, Black Caddis; adults have dark wings and pupae are typically dark olive with tan lateral stripes and dark wingcases.

Brachycentrus nigrosoma--Little Dark Grannom, Little Black Caddis; adults/pupae are smaller and darker than numerosus.

Brachycentrus appalachia--Apple Caddis, Light Shadfly, Light Grannom; adults have very light tannish or grayish wings (almost white when freshly emerged) and apple green bodies; pupae are apple green with tan wingcases.

(Brachycentrus solomoni and incanu are also found in PA. B. solomoni is very similar to numerosus, and incanu is rather rare.)

Most "grannom" activity in PA occurs from mid-April to mid-May. During that time, if you carry imitations of dark and light grannoms (adults and pupae) in sizes #14-16, you should have most bases covered.

You are right that the adult imitations are seldom very good during the emergence (pupa or emerger patterns are best). During the egg-laying activity, however, they are often very effective. The fish may prefer skittered, dead-drifted, or wet adult imitations depending upon the concentrations around their lies.

I haven't had the pleasure of fishing Oil Creek, but it does appear to share some characteristics with some of the other medium-to-large "marginal" or "recovering" trout streams in the state. Like the Tulpehocken and the Little Juniata, caddisflies are very important, but most of the classic early season mayflies are not (Hendricksons, quill Gordons, blue quills). In some ways, this simplifies early season choices until the more tolerant and adaptable "sulphurs" make their appearance.

I don't see B. numerosus listed for your area, but the very similar B. solomoni is listed (along with B. appalachia, lateralis, and nigrosoma). All of these "grannoms" should comprise some significant early season opportunities on Oil.

I'll second Brett's observations on fishing them. (He fishes numerosus, but the information is applicable to most grannom species.) The color change from freshly emerged adults to "aged" adults is something I've mentioned in another thread, and you can see a good example of this by turning to the Brachycentrus appalachia page and comparing the color of the freshly emerged adult (underwater shot) to the aged adult. During the actual emergence, I usually find a good pupa pattern to be the most effective fly, but the grannoms offer better dry-fly opportunities than do many other caddisfly species (especially during their egg-laying activity).

I, too, have had some wonderful experiences with a skittered dry grannom at times (a Henryville Special, Elk-Hair Caddis, or my own Fluttering Sedge in appropriate colors), but it is not a totally reliable phenomenon. Spent or even wet versions of the adults are often more successful. This preference can vary from one day to another, from one spot to another, or even from one fish to another. The rise form will usually tip the fish's hand.

In addition to the variety of grannoms, your area hosts a great selection of Hydropsychidae. Common Ceratopsyche species such as bronta, morosa, sparna, and walkeri, and Hydropsyche species including betteni, hageni, brunneipennis, and scalaris are all recorded for your area. These "spotted sedge" species have tan, cinnamon, or mottled greyish-brown wings and body colors that vary from yellow or yellowish-green to cinnamon or greyish-tan. Again, I find a matching pupa pattern to be best for the emergence, but wet flies (for diving adults) or dry flies (for exhausted or spent adults) can be useful during egg-laying. Due to the prevalence of the Hydropsychidae throughout much of the season, an adult dry used as a searching fly (especially along stream edges and under overhanging vegetation where the adults drop down to drink) can turn up a few fish most anytime.





I'm especially interested in your mention of Nectopsyche. The only species of this genus that I see listed for your area is exquisita, which is one of the more colorful "white millers." Their cream-colored wings are marked with bands of tan and punctuated by four dark spots along the top rear of the (closed) outer wings. Their bodies also tend to be darker (more olive) than the cream or light green bodies of other common PA Nectopsyche. You may also have other Nectopsyche species that have yet to be recorded. I'm curious to know what kind of fishing opportunities these provide on Oil.

The catch with many of the later-emerging Nectopsyche species is that they frequent larger, warmer stretches and water temperatures are not always conducive to trout activity. I suspect that the dwindling supply of stocked trout in Oil could also be a factor with regard to this hatch, but I'd be interested to learn about any successes you've had while fishing this hatch.
MartinlfApril 7th, 2015, 9:35 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2958
Thanks, Tom. We have one other Grannom thread, believe it or not, that I've been looking for, plus some good larvae ties, possibly in an unrelated thread. Wish we had them all edited and combined.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
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