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The Specimen

The Discussion

BrookymanMarch 1st, 2013, 1:04 am
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Posts: 797
Is this the real true modestum, not one of syn ones.
I am curious I haven't seen one like this, its cool looking.

Mack.
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EntomanMarch 1st, 2013, 5:53 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
This doesn't look like modestum (Cahill) to me. There are posterolateral projections on abdominal segments anterior to 6. Jason collected this specimen almost a decade ago so the rationale for placement at the time is probably irretrievable. We don't even know its size, which may be helpful. This example points out the value of including reasons for opinions. As boring or tedious they may be, they establish a benchmark for later review. Perhaps this one got inadvertently mixed in with the others submitted about this time. They look very similar.

Based solely on what's observable, this specimen looks to be either to luteum or vicarium (Gray Fox). Lacking setae on the cerci outer margins points to the former while the sterna maculation looks like the latter. The 8th and 9th posterolateral processes are the least obvious, but look to favor luteum (those 8's look pretty long).

The specimen looks very close to one of yours we worked on recently, Mack - though the cerci and process characters are less murky with this specimen if I remember correctly. I normally tend to favor the character where the differences are most obvious when the others ride the line. In this case all three are pretty strong... and somewhat conflicting. If you twist my arm I'd probably go with the pain induced choice of luteum in this case.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanMarch 1st, 2013, 8:50 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
After a quick review of the entire modestum hatch page, I don't think any of the nymph specimens are that species. The top two are probably either vicarium or luteum and the bottom two are most likely mediopunctatum arwini.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanMarch 1st, 2013, 10:16 pm
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Posts: 797
I was thinking that it might be vicarium looking at the one I posted it has similar markings on the 9th. However I agree with the 8th projection I can see it without blowing it up. But looking at Speith 1947 for instar evelopment it looks like around the 17th instar. So with toughs traverse bands so well developed up the the 3 sternite I think I would guess vicarium.

How did I do Kurt. I hope you dont mind me poking at these I use them to learn

Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanMarch 2nd, 2013, 12:22 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
You may well be right about this one, Mack. As far as "poking" the determinations on the hatch pages, that's what they're there for. We want to encourage questioning and conversation about them. In this case you brought one up in need of a revisit, thanks.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanMarch 2nd, 2013, 12:31 am
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Posts: 797
Thanks Kurt. I am learning and loving it.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts

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