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> > ? Male Spinner & a Female Ephemerellid

Brookyman has attached these 7 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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BrookymanFebruary 1st, 2013, 2:03 pm
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Posts: 797
I am assuming that the female is a Paraleptophlebia mollis only because it was caught in a mating flight that the white male "Jenny spinner" was in. She was a little bigger that the male. But there could be other mating flights going on at the same time of this genus. So well see what it turns out to be.

The picture quality is not to good.

Mack.
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MartinlfFebruary 1st, 2013, 5:07 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2933
Do some other mayflies besides paraleps have the jenny spinner coloration? Perhaps some baetids?
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
BrookymanFebruary 1st, 2013, 5:33 pm
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Posts: 797
There are some I think but I don't know which, Kurt will know that.
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EntomanFebruary 1st, 2013, 6:50 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Do some other mayflies besides paraleps have the jenny spinner coloration? Perhaps some baetids?

Yes Louis, and many heptageniids as well. Heck, even a few ephemerellids. Fortunately, the leptophlebids can be easily differentiated by their three tails and the heptageniids with the two-toned look are usually much larger than the baetids. For differentiating similar sized ones we need to look at the hind wings and eyes in addition to tail counts. A curious point of interest is that the middle segments of the Paraleptophlebia species look to actually have white pigment whereas the others usually look white due to transparency.

Mack, the female is an ephemerellid and the male probably isn't. Both are too damaged (especially the male) for me to go any further than this with much confidence. From what I can make out of the genitalia together with the white pigment, the male is probably one of the two-toned Paraleptophlebia species. The female is probably E. invaria? Size information may be useful. The end of May is cornucopia season, (especially last year) so that isn't much help in this case.

BTW - the tiny dot patterns on the female sterna are fascinating. Maybe someone else will know if they have any significance.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanFebruary 1st, 2013, 8:16 pm
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Posts: 797
Wow she is a ephemerellid

It was very small just bigger than that male. Those marking I found out while researching that fraturcula that they are called ganglionic marking and are common on some Ephemerella's. Subvaria is the one that has them the strongest and most often.

Does the neddhami or aurivillii as adults have that dorsal stripe ??? they usually have them in the nymphs. Thinking of it now aurivillii is to big that species is in the 10-13mm range. The female was more like 7mm.


Mack.
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BrookymanFebruary 1st, 2013, 8:28 pm
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Posts: 797
I just found that female sample and I have 3 more like her, and all females. The wing veining does look way more like Ehpmerella. The dried body is 6 mm and the wings appear to be 9mm so likely 8mm ??? living. That is in range of needhami ?? I wish I had a male now.
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EntomanFebruary 1st, 2013, 10:48 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Thanks for the size info. Now I'm leaning more towards E. excrucians (PMD). Not the dark variety easterners commonly think of but the pale form previously named inermis (before the synonymy) that's so common in the West. Surprisingly, this western form has disparate populations in Eastern Canada while the darker Midwestern excrucians lies between them. It's going to be interesting to see how that all shakes out.

Anyway, aurivillii (no common name) is too big and I'm reasonably sure needhami (Little Dark Hendrickson) is too dark to be possibilities. I don't know what to make of the faint dorsal stripes.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularFebruary 1st, 2013, 11:40 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Just throwing this out there... Eurylophella?
BrookymanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 2:08 am
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I think you are likely right here Kurt. I just got back from seeing
Zero Dark 30 the movie on the Bin ladin mission. Excellent movie.

Now back on topic. I reviewed the females and I also have 5 more female and one male dun in solution. The male was uneventful the genital were not formed enough to have value but the claspers are from that group. The subanal plate however on the females looks really really good for Eurylophella minimella Allen & Edmunds 1963. I think that what Eric put out there might be the ticket. Here is a link to that paper. In reading the description however size is also a issue Allen & Edmunds have that female being 6-7mm body & 6-7 wings other than that it fits the description very good down to the median dorsal strip. But this girl here has a 9mm wing. I am going to look around to see if I can find a illustration of the female subanal plate for E. excrucians.

http://www.ephemeroptera-galactica.com/pubs/pub_a/puballenr1963p597.pdf

I like finding these odd ones.:) OK the balls back in your court LOL :)
You too Eric.

Mack.
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BrookymanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 2:56 am
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Posts: 797
OK there is another possible here Eurylophella prudentalis That fits from the size standing. The subanal plate on the female is also reasonable. In looking at minimella and prudentalis my samples subanal plate is in between both. The scalped sides of the plate, and posterial depression on firgure 50 are very close to mine. Another anomaly is the length of the setae hairs in the rearwing sheath. They are twice the length of the forewing. There is also no color articulation in the tails

However my samples lateral projections match firgure 57 more being minimella.

These figures are in Allen & Edmunds 1963 I put a link to it in my reply to Kurt on this thread.

Mack.
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EntomanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 7:15 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
You might be right, Eric. Good thinking. Perhaps the explanation for the dorsal stripes, Mack? My understanding is that the Eurylophella genus is predominately made up of species that are dark and more lentic in orientation, but they are found in streams as well. I don't know if this equates to the shallow cobble strewn riffles and runs that Mack is working, though.

Guys,

About the time Eric made his post, I was thinking about going a different direction as well for the fun of it, if for no other reason than to see if the male could be reintroduced into the mix. In the process serendipity intervened. Trying to meld the two different directions it took me, I came up with a post that was way too confusing and largely off topic. I promptly deleted it. If anybody read it during the time it was up (Mack), I'm sorry for that. I will try to come up with a way to address this topic as well as the new one that what I stumbled upon deserves - much later today.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularFebruary 2nd, 2013, 7:42 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
I get a lot of Eurylophella sp. nymphs in my stream samples around here. And we only sample riffles.
EntomanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 3:47 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Good to know, thanks! I'll put that info in my very skinny Eurylophella file.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 5:25 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Prior to Eric's post suggesting the possibility of Eurylophella species, I was looking in different directions as well, particularly in the genera Attenella and Serratella. The reason was because some of their males are known to have the two toned appearance and may present a way to put the male specimen back into the discussion mix. The most interesting things I noticed will go into another thread, but for this topic, check the link out from the Attenella attenuata hatch page:http://www.troutnut.com/fullsize/picture-im_regspec/1741 Notice the pale area between the middle legs, the dark small dot pattern combined with the single larger pale spots down the center of the sterna, darkened plurals, and the dark patch on the terminal sterna. Pretty close match... Though it's more on the olive side of the spectrum, that by itself means nothing when working with this category of critters.

Here's where it gets serendipitous. I'll go into it in the new thread but it is likely that the specimen in the link isn't Attenella attenuata but rather the inermis strain of Ephemerella excrucians! So I've unintentionally come full circle. Unfortunately, this still leaves the male out as unassociated. Does this mean I'm convinced your specimen is excucians, Mack? No, just leaning. The truth is though, it wouldn't take much for me to lean back Eric's direction.:)

Anyway, before we engage in further "tilting at windmills", it's good to keep in mind that the current "state of the art" keys don't work with females of this family beyond separating them from the long terminal filamented Caudatella genus. After that, we're on our own.:( However, common sense tells us that we need not necessarily throw up our hands as there are still characters that help us go beyond the keys. For example, we don't need key support for distinguishing between the females of Drunella grandis and the tiny dark Ephemerella tibialis or even the closer differences between say, E. subvaria and E. dorothea. It's with species very close to the middle between the extremes that things get dicey, as in this case. :)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 8:47 pm
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Kurt I am also seeing a few other things with that sample Attenella attenuata that are closer than what you have pointed out.

Look at the rear coxa and trochanter sets they are beyond close in there shape. I am sorry to do this and I mean now harm but I put red circles on a copy of Jason's photo to point out import anatomical feature that are the same as mine. It was easier and assured no misunderstanding in a description. My samples head shape from a dorsal view the posterial edge is convexed toward the median ocelli. As well my samples lateral ocelli are closer together that Jason's and slightly different in their shape. We are on track here with this newest pick. There seems to be more yellow/tan tones in my costal veins. My flagellum's match his in this picture, they have brown tones on their lateral sides of them.

http://www.troutnut.com/fullsize/picture-im_regspec/1734

Sorry Jason's

In looking at the samples under the microscope mine match all the details circled perfectly. I load the photo in this tread.


Mack.

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EntomanFebruary 2nd, 2013, 9:22 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Cool, Mack! Nice work. Don't worry about using Jason's photos on site - that's what they're here for. Just don't do anything pornographic! :)LOL

We are on track here with this newest pick.

To be clear and avoid misunderstanding, there is no "newest pick" unless by pick you mean photo. I highly doubt Jason's photo is of A. attenuata. My belief is it's either E. excrucians or a species of Eurylophella as Eric is suggesting for your specimen.

There seems to be more yellow/tan tones in my costal veins.

Don't get too wrapped up in comparing color as many ephemerellid species are all over the color wheel. Another thing to keep in mind is identical appearing characters are significant to the degree of uniqueness. To illustrate what I mean hypothetically, lets say they have identical looking trochanters. But what if they also look identical to other species in the genus, or several genera. The more unique the similarity, the more valuable it is for determination. Of course, if they are identical in every way across the board it would be hard to argue that they aren't the same species.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularFebruary 2nd, 2013, 10:53 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
How did I let myself get sucked into this? ;)
BrookymanFebruary 3rd, 2013, 12:31 am
Banned
Posts: 797
This is a great adventure as usual Kurt

We are on track here with this newest pick.
That species likely being E excrucians and not likely A. attenuata.
We are back full circle and yous first thought's may be the best thought's.

I will keep that in mind regarding the photos. It is also very helpful to others here to see the things we discussing here. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Mack.
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EntomanFebruary 4th, 2013, 6:35 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
I don't think Eurylophella is probable for either of these specimens. An important character easily separating it from other ephemerellid genera is its unusual 9th segment which are usually noticeably longer than the 8th and other segments - often substantially so. Sorry I didn't think of it sooner, guys. It just slipped by me this time. I guess I was too wrapped up in my musings about that Attenella character.:)

I get a lot of Eurylophella sp. nymphs in my stream samples around here. And we only sample riffles.

Did you notice the long 9th segment on them? If not, perhaps the samples are worth another look.

How did I let myself get sucked into this? ;)

Jeez, sorry Eric... You have to admit it didn't take much of a vacuum.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularFebruary 5th, 2013, 9:16 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919

Did you notice the long 9th segment on them? If not, perhaps the samples are worth another look.

All of my collections to which I was referring are larval. Eurylophella is separated out by the Lamellate gills on Ab. segments 4-7. This is not present in Ephemerella, or Serratella. Attenalla comes out with the lack of operculate gills on Ab. seg 4. I'm pretty confident about my identifications to genus level taxonomy with mature larval specimens.

How did I let myself get sucked into this? ;)

Jeez, sorry Eric... You have to admit it didn't take much of a vacuum.:)


No I know. I just am not comfortable doing this stuff from photographs that do not show the characters needed to be close to being sure about an ID. I should know better.
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