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> > Maybe fractercula?

Brookyman has attached these 16 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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turbicals on the 9th
turbicals on the 9th
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BrookymanJanuary 21st, 2013, 7:28 pm
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A possible Ephemerella fratercula or something else ???

This one is falling on Luke’s shoulders J

A couple things I must state first that we must keep in mind.

1. I don’t know what the set range of variability is in any potential species.
2. This is a sample that did not fully mature.
3. The sample with the exoskeleton in the photos is fresh within 2 hours of death, so the color has some value and is overall similar to descriptions by McDunnough 1925, Travers 1937 &
Allen & Edmunds 1965 for fratercula. But all their samples where all imagos. Also most importantly the larval stage is still unknown for fratercula since 1925. Fratercula species is very “Closely allied” to Ephemerella invaria so it would be very easy to call this invaria and leave it at that.

So this must be approached with care and great caution, but with a open mind.

There are many reasons for me to fight for the concept that this sample may in fact be
E fratercula or other specie, and some of the reasons are in this posting.

I do to the best of my knowledge, believe that my illustration of the male gentiles are very accurate to what I was seeing throughout the full process of slide mounting of the parts. Compare them to the microscope photos I took. I would prefer to be able to call this Ephemerella invaria and close the case, but I do like to be a sure and open minded to all concepts.

There is another side to this story that should be known. I have also included illustrations from Ephemerella nymphs that I dissected and filed as E rotunda. They match rotunda the most , but also matches invaria and subvaria in many ways. With that being said the reason for including this information is that the samples I slide mounted match the exoskeleton present it the photo with the sample in question. That could also explain all the variables to all the closely related species in the nymphs I have. If this male sample here is considered fratercula, I can then include all anatomical parts mounted plus illustrations which would help give this species a complete description. Also from all of this I can locate and rear many others
samples this spring.

Looking at the insert of Allen & Edmunds 1965 illustrations of all the possible species at hand you can see all the configuration differences, I marked them all with a red marker for you to compare. From all photos, illustrations, and descriptions I know of about invaria’s penal lobe shape, my sample I am providing is very close to invaria, “BUT” my sample has no spines or spines in process in or around the posterior margin on the inside of the median V area as in invaria. I can also only presume that the illustrations from Allen & Edmunds are very accurate. With that stated those spines should be present in mine if my sample was invaria ??? As well invaria also tends to have long spines in the mid-lateral region, mine are all very small, acute, and not sprinkled about, but placed in tight order and none of them are lateral or ventral. Then again this might be a new strain or variant ??? Or all of this does fit into the variability of invaria or rotunda.

The illustrations I included are from one of the larva. The pronotum shape seems to be unique
and not true to form of subvaria or invaria, but similar to rotunda. The lateral anterior edge shape is very contoured. The maxillae is closer to rotunda in overall shape, setae placement, and dentical configurations. But in most other keys is closer to invaria and subvaria. The claw is a illustration of right foreleg and the configuration overall is exact. Another interesting twist on this is the wing size. To the best I could straighten the wing, the wing appears to be 10 or 10.5mm. The wing size of fratercula is stated as 8mm. Invaria is 8-9mm. But subvaria and rotunda are set at 10mm Needham 1935. Also my males genitals looks more like invaria or fratercula. So its like a 50/50 mix. Another twist is the color. Invaria as I see in samples at troutnut in the dun stage the color is a [ lime/yellow/olive ] ventrally. Mine is closer to subvaria being pinkish brown yellow. Looking at my genital illustration and subvaria Allen & Edmunds mine looks close to it, but my subanal plate is more like invaria. One other observation is there are no ganglionic marking mid ventral on mine as in subvaria. Another thing interesting is the nyphal shuck has turbicals on the 9th segments and invaria is from 3-8. See the pronotum shape as well. This is a puzzle based on variability. So is it subvaria ???


Then again all of these differences in the adult male in question could just be attributed to the sample not being fully matured.

So we’ll see what comes out in the end.

THX guy’s, Mack.
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KonchuJanuary 21st, 2013, 7:40 pm
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fratercula would have many small setae all over the ventral face of the penes, so i think this probably is not that species. from the images, i cannot tell if the brown setae are on the dorsal aspect or some combination of the dorsal and ventral faces. that would be important, possibly. the color of adult wing veins would be important also for a good species determination.
EntomanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 6:53 am
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Northern CA & ID

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A possible Ephemerella fratercula or something else ???

E. fratercula is no longer a valid species name, having long been synonymized with invaria. It is my understanding that it was only known for a single location in Quebec. It doesn't seem to match up all that well with either the diagrams or the descriptions, anyway. Based on what characters I can make out on the bedraggled dun and its nymphal exuvium, it looks like a pretty typical invaria (Light Hendrickson or Sulfur Dun) to me.

I don’t know what the set range of variability is in any potential species.

Well, just talking genitalia since that seems to be the primary focus of your topic, the answer is - pretty substantial. Please note Figures 9 - 11 in the diagram you included in your post. All three are now the same species...

The pronotum shape seems to be unique and not true to form of subvaria or invaria, but similar to rotunda

Hmmm... Interesting. I don't know what this means though as I'm not aware of the use of pronotal shape as a diagnostic character difference between subvaria and invaria. As for rotunda, it's no longer a valid species name either. It too has been synonymized with invaria.

Another thing interesting is the nyphal shuck has turbicals on the 9th segments and invaria is from 3-8. See the pronotum shape as well. This is a puzzle based on variability. So is it subvaria ???

No, invaria can have them on the 9th tergite as well and again, I don't know what to make of the notal difference. Even though the exuvium is missing its legs and tails making it more difficult the dorsal processes are usually more prominent on subvaria (Dk. Hendrickson). Here's an invaria specimen with them on the 9th segment (the processes look like pale spots on the terga):http://www.troutnut.com/fullsize/picture-im_regspec/1609 This specimen also has the same ventral maculation and color as yours: http://www.troutnut.com/fullsize/picture-im_regspec/1610 More obvious evidence pointing away from subvaria is the dun, though. For comparison check this out: http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/734. Sometimes it's easy to get lost in the weeds by focusing narrowly on just a few characters, especially when working with older taxonomies and species concepts. Been there, done that! :) They're a great resource, but we have to refer to them in context.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
KonchuJanuary 22nd, 2013, 9:36 am
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Indiana

Posts: 496
synonymies of species are hypotheses, just as species themselves are hypotheses, all of which are worthy of testing.
BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 11:18 am
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I can tomorrow try to open the wing on a slide if so I will photo what I can and if I am unhappy with the photos I will provide a detailed illustration.

ouch my shoulder is killing. LOL :)

Mack.
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BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 12:41 pm
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Hi Luke

All my reference here is to my genital illustration. I added a marked-up version of my illustration showing placement of setae.

At 400x the ventral surface has rows of very minute setae patches from the lateral edge to half way to the top of the ventral surface near the median V area. They are all approximately 1/4 the length of the main spines. They are more of the typical golden color than brown that may be just a maturity issue. They are isolated from the ""neck area"" the long curve to the top spines. There are no setae mixed in with the spines

A couple other things to add is looking at my illustration at the top left lateral edge where I placed a red arrow. I was originally viewing that as a depression put it appears to be a bump like a pimple. That may be a spine that didn't develop. On the other side it is the same thing and in the same spot. Also I had never measured the shuck and it is APX 10mm the head capsule is not attached so i had to estimate the head thickness and add it to the body length to get 10mm. Later to day I will try to open the wing and maybe to mount it but it doesn't want to un-curl it self.


Mack.

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BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 3:22 pm
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OK the wing is being very difficult to open and mount. Also the wing is a dun wing so visibility is tough. However this is the information I can give.
All coloring is very faint.

1; The over all color is a buff tan with it being more opaque and milky
silver toned in the costa region.


2; All cross-veins appear to be transparent or hyaline some having tan
tones but very fine tan near to where they connect to the longitude
veins

3; all longitudinal veins in the costa region are very light tan color with
a hint of yellowish tone. The yellow tone is very minor and relatively
restricted to the lower costa area near the brace.

4; The costa brace is more amber in color but does maintain a tan over tone.


5; In the stigma region I believe I can see what might be referred to as anastomosed veins.

6; Allot of the radius veins appear to be transparent.

I am not going to mount the wing because I do not want to damage it. So I will put it back in the test-tub for safe keeping. I can try it again if you need photos or a illustration.

Mack.
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BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 3:46 pm
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Hi Kurt

Actually Jay Traver has a published report of a sample male imago she obtained in Valle Crucis North Carolina June 5th 1937. Here is a link to it. It is a protected document so I can not copy & paste from it but you can read it on page 67. I guess the range is likely very large and Covey Hill Quebec is only about a 100 miles from my area. All of this focus on that specie was at the request of Luke. Cause I maybe holding the only known nymph and or examples of that specie for the first time since 1925.

http://www.ephemeroptera-galactica.com/pubs/pub_t/pubtraverj1937p27.pdf

Mack.
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KonchuJanuary 22nd, 2013, 3:54 pm
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Indiana

Posts: 496
that NC report of fratercula might instead be E. hispida

KonchuJanuary 22nd, 2013, 3:58 pm
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the images and what is described looks more like the rotunda variant of invaria than the original concept of fratercula, which had stout setae scattered on the ventral face of the penes, with those setae not really being in rows.
BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 4:00 pm
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I don't know anything about it past her report. So likely rotunda ???


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KonchuJanuary 22nd, 2013, 4:01 pm
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http://www.ephemeroptera-galactica.com/pubs/pub_m/pubmcdunnoughj1925p207.pdf

compare figs 5 & 6
BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 4:02 pm
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When you say stout you are referring to thick because they are thick on this one but just short. WOW # 5 looks allot like my illustration.
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BrookymanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 4:18 pm
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Got ya Thank you for working this one with me.

Mack.
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EntomanJanuary 22nd, 2013, 7:14 pm
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Mack -

ouch my shoulder is killing. LOL :)

I apologize, Mack. Of course Luke is right and I didn't mean to come off so grouchy with my last post. There were a lot of questions posed and it was late and I just tried to fire off as many answers as quickly as I could before hitting the hay. Re-reading it I can see how it came across as, well... curt, even for Kurt!:)

However, your initial post as well as Luke's response didn't provide a clear context and did leave the impression that both fractercula and rotunda were currently valid species names. Your brief comment implying one could take the lazy way out and just call it invaria certainly didn't help...:) Don't get me wrong, I love these discussions. I remember arguing that E. infrequens (PMD) was really E. Dorothea (Eastern Sulfur) almost 40 years ago. Turns out I was right (at least for now) though for the wrong reasons.:) Anyway, I think I'm also right in saying most would not glean from those initial posts that you two were discussing a debatable species concept that has been obsolete for quite awhile. Considering the lateness of the hour, I should have just clarified that point and let it go at that...;)

Pax,

Kurt


Luke -

the images and what is described looks more like the rotunda variant of invaria than the original concept of fratercula

Assuming you are talking about Mack's specimen, those were my first thoughts as well, especially with the spines on the dorsal extending so far basaly. My only caveat is that it is unclear to me what stage we are looking at. I'm not sure what any of this means if we are looking at dun private parts.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJanuary 23rd, 2013, 1:48 am
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Kurt you are my mentor I am always wanting you input, and when I the newbie step out to far you always put me back. It sure would have been excellent to have found that RARE "strain" of invaria. That's a real important group.

Actually its my fault I posted it that way to direct Luke to it without confusion. He had asked me to sorta do the workup description cause he was curious if that might have been a "Holly grand slam" of a find, you might say.

WOW 87 years and no nymph ever found. Its not far from my area so you can bet
I will rear tons of ephemerella's that look like that inavia larva !!! just in case right. Maybe I will start a invaria farm..LOL

The two times I hate having to type are, when I am dirt tried, and drinking and typing doesn't mix very well ether.:):):).



Mack.
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EntomanJanuary 23rd, 2013, 1:56 am
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WOW 87 years and no nymph ever found. Its not far from my area so you can bet
I will rear tons of ephemerella's that look like that inavia larva !!!

Enthusiasm is a beautiful thing, don't ever let anybody damper it. Temper maybe... but not damper! :)

The two times I hate having to type are, when I am dirt tried, and drinking and typing doesn't mix very well ether.:):):).

Ha! I've been there a time or two... As one of those '70's Stan Lee groupies in college all I can say is, "Nuff said" :)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularJanuary 23rd, 2013, 8:11 am
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Posts: 916
:)
KonchuJanuary 23rd, 2013, 3:00 pm
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Indiana

Posts: 496
If you are up for it, I'd rear any Ephemerella, not just invaria. There is soooooo much we don't know. Several new species are out there. Also, there's no guarantee the fratercula larva will look like invaria. But, the hypothesis of synonymy might be right, and it might be exactly like invaria. Or it could be like E. hispida. Or something different, too.
BrookymanJanuary 23rd, 2013, 3:47 pm
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You rock Kurt.
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