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> > >>> Epeorus vitreus <<< sulpher dun

Brookyman has attached these 7 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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BrookymanJanuary 9th, 2013, 5:31 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Under Jason's list this is a sulphur.

I filed this as Epeorus vitrea and looking at the ones
here at troutnut I am reasonably happy calling this a
Epeorus vitreus female dun.

Any thought's ???

It looks like I am the [ get bugs identified photo guy ]
till spring anyway cause I keep finding more. I don't remember the size
I would think it was around the 10mm range ???


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
BrookymanJanuary 9th, 2013, 5:41 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
WOW I just noticed if you look real close this is two different ones.

One has both tails and missing a front leg. The other one is missing the
tails and has 6 legs. But They appear to be the same species.


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJanuary 9th, 2013, 8:12 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
What size are they and when were they captured?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJanuary 9th, 2013, 11:09 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Hey Kurt

June 10th is the photo date. I would say likely around 10mm. I
was really busy collecting and photographing everyday 100's of
photos, so I did always get the info on all samples. 99% of all
samples I caught I photographed that same day.


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJanuary 10th, 2013, 10:02 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Mack -

Based on size, date, dark humeral, and the apricot ova pigment bleeding through, my best guess is vitreus as well. There are currently six species of Epeorus recognized for NE Canada and while most can be discounted for one reason or another, female duns without association are tough.:)

BTW - it hasn't been called vitrea since before it was placed in Iron let alone in Epeorus. Now you're really shuffling the dated taxonomy deck!:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJanuary 11th, 2013, 2:58 am
Banned
Posts: 797
Ahhh yes you are so right. My learning curve is huge this year. LOL

So I can leave the "correct" name on that file right ???

Can you post the six here for N E Canada for me please.


THX


Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJanuary 11th, 2013, 4:54 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
So I can leave the "correct" name on that file right ???

Sure, Mack. You can always change it later if more info comes to light pointing a different direction. The females are hard to determine in isolation because several Epeorus species have very similar morphologies and can hatch from the same stream at around the same time. Also, there's not a lot of info on them as they are virtually impossible to raise in the lab and the fast currents they love make raising them "in situ" equally problematic. There aren't any reliable keys for them (females), either. For example, Merritt IV doesn't key any heptageniid females beyond the couplet that excludes the Arthropleidae. Webb & McCafferty '08 only key females to genus. The lack of a transverse suture on the mesonotum and the weakly developed and slanting basal costal crossveins in your specimens make me confident in the genus determination, but as far as species, the best I can do is remove many of the possibilities through the process of elimination. All we have to work with are bits and fragments from various writings regarding size, distribution, coloration, markings, and egg colors. These are all pieces to a puzzle that sometimes come together to form a picture, sometimes not.

Can you post the six here for N E Canada for me please.

Sure. The six species are: albertae, fragilis, pleuralis, punctatus, suffusus, vitreus.

These same six are all known for Ontario as well.

BTW - It's really important that you document the size of your specimens as accurately as possible. Size is a significant clue in most cases, especially with this genus. Failure to do so will result in many of your photos being impossible to determine beyond a certain level and I know that's not what you want.

If you can:
1. Capture both male and females from a hatch.
2. Faithfully document size, location, habitat, date & time of collection.
3. Take the photo series I mentioned in that other thread.
4. Let them molt and run the same series of photos again (multiple specimens are important to allow for damage that may prevent molting success).

By the time you're done, you'll really have something!:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJanuary 11th, 2013, 10:46 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
Wow Excellent Kurt.

I am making tons of useful forms too fill out as I go into this spring. I am also building a every intense photo booth that is portable and on a tripod, and my camera on another tripod. I am also going to use my digital caliper to measure all that gets in front of my camera :)

I am going collecting tomorrow at my bothers farm it is LOADED with
Stenacrons almost all of them. So i will get a chance to try these potential forms out to insure all the clarity you mentioned in this and the other thread.

Thanks for the list.

Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJanuary 12th, 2013, 12:06 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
You're welcome and good luck tomorrow.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
OldredbarnJanuary 18th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Based on size, date, dark humeral, and the apricot ova pigment bleeding through, my best guess is vitreus as well.


Kurt...You are getting down right poetic! Nice turn of phrase. :)

Brookyman...I have taken the liberty to requote parts of Dave's (Creno) post from another thread, he won't mind, to maybe encourage you a bit...Nice pics! :) Keep up the good work.

Students are not being funded for this research and there are almost no jobs doing this kind of basic science. The task is going to fall to the amateur naturalists with the time and inclination. It can be done with the association of interested amateurs - look at the efforts made by fishermen with the mayflies. Caddis are just the next step. Properly save and document your collections. Try and get them to folks who are interested and willing to help. If you are going to throw them out throw them at an entomological museum where they can be preserved and examined by future generations.



Again...Nicely put Dave!

Spence


"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
BrookymanJanuary 19th, 2013, 1:55 am
Banned
Posts: 797
WOW Spence I really like and appreciate that quote.

I figure I am retired at 46, and have the time, and the interest to catch, photo,and even dissect as many samples as I can. That's my buck list.

It is such a passion but my goal now is to do highly detail painted illustration of every species of mayfly in every stage in Ontario. As I flip through all the papers there is so little complete information for comparison. Its like good luck finding a illustrated manual on one specie that shows every body part, to help us none pro's make good decisions. I know it will be the ultimate task but its one I am doing for me anyway, so i will just share them with the world. I have done 8 Heptagenia larva in the past 6 days. I now spend 10- 16 hrs a day at this hobby. If you want to see samples let me know and I will load some here to share.

I also will be donating more that they probable want. But I am going to really look for the super rare stuff like Ephemerella fraterculawhich since the 1930's there has never been a nymph caught to be associated
to the adults. Heck I might get luck and have the pro's use my illustrations
in a publication that I will do by donation for sure.

Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts

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