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> > Who is this :) Heptagenia __________???

Brookyman has attached these 5 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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BrookymanDecember 22nd, 2012, 11:10 pm
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Posts: 797
These samples are from the 4th of June. The common names that come to mind would be [ golden duns or ginger quill ] ???

The littler one dissected seems to best represent Heptagenia flavescens I am not up on the heptagenia species of my area. The lager one is very similar but in "coloration" being maculation there are some differences not sure if that really counts.

The little guy came in at 9mm so I would say the larger one might be 14mm.

Not sure if this info is enough but we will see.

Mack.
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EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:07 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
You're spot on about the genus. Claws without denticles, tails without well developed interfacing setae, 1st gill closer in size to the second, similar 7th gills with tufts - taken together these are diagnostic characters.

The good news is they all look to be the same species. The difference in size and slight variation in marking are due to development and possibly sex. The bad news is I'm not aware of any keys or descriptions considered reliable beyond a certain point. Of the four species recorded for NE Canada, I'm reasonably confident this isn't either elegantula or pulla based on dorsal maculation, but choosing between flavescens and marginalis is at best very difficult. Based on older descriptions (Traver, Burkes) these specimens have the pale "U" shaped marks on the posterior terga that point to flavescens. The dark head and lack of large pale triangular areas extending dorsolaterally from the eyes is a better match for marginalis. Jeff Webb has probably collected these in your neck of the woods so perhaps he recognizes it.

Besides the common names you mentioned, these critters also go by the name Pale Evening Dun. I'll bet you a dollar against a donut that Taxon can come up with a whole bunch more.:)

You ever see this guy produce a fishable hatch?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
TaxonDecember 23rd, 2012, 3:57 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1297
I'll bet you a dollar against a donut that Taxon can come up with a whole bunch more.:)

The following common names (of which I'm aware) have been used by flyfishers in various regions of N. America to describe one or more species of genus Heptagenia:

Dandy, Ginger Quill Spinner, Golden Dun, Gray Drake, Gray Fox, Little Graywinged Olive, Pale Evening Dun, Pale Evening Spinner, Slate Gray Dun, Western Pale Evening Dun, Western Pink Quill, Western Red Quill

With regard to identity of the species of Heptagenia for which Mack posted the above photos, based on their dorsal markings, I would lean toward H. flavescens.
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 4:44 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
There you go, Mack! :)

...I would lean toward H. flavescens.

I do as well, though the head capsule bothers me a little. I can't locate any information that documents specimens with a color pattern intermediate between these two species. There is brief mention in several more modern papers that the older stuff (Traver, Burks, et al.) isn't all that reliable because of their regional source, which is a bit frustrating. It also turns out that markings are more subject to environmental influences than previously thought as well.

BTW - If we are all correct about our leanings, this is a fairly rare critter. Congrats on the photos!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 4:53 pm
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Posts: 797
Hi Kurt

You ever see this guy produce a fishable hatch?


In the area where I got these guy's absolutely yes a fishible hatch.
Trout too rise to the hatch not so much. Mostly [shiners & Chub].

This area has massive amounts of these guy's and M pulchellum's
just like the one I previously post, as a matter of fact the one I posted came from the same rocks same day.

but choosing between flavescens and marginalis is at best difficult. Based on older descriptions


The two things that steered me away from marginalis was 1 I could not say for sure that specie fell into my area, and looking at the one
in Heptageiidae of the world part 2 not very close.

Funny thing I took all the current & historical keys I could find and the small one keyed out as flavescens. The the next day I review all the slides and my notes. I then for some apparent reason believed they were minerva.

Three days later I revisited this and took it back to flavescens. I always
take this species concept to the splitting of hairs. But I always try to remember they are like us a individual living biology add no two are
truly the same.

Mack.



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BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 4:55 pm
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Hi Roger

Yup I went back to H flavescens too.

Mack.
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BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 4:58 pm
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Posts: 797
WOW Kurt I didn't know that.
You can bet that because I have a river full I will
be rearing many this spring :).


Mack.
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EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 5:07 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
The comments in this paper are very interesting regarding the whole problem with determining species in this genus.

http://insectscience.org/7.63/

It may turn out that species in the flavescens group will be synonymized and/or expanded to such an extent that much of our discussion may eventually prove mute.:)

Perhaps you found an intergrade between the two "species"? Just throwing this out there for discussion.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:24 pm
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Posts: 797
Perhaps you found an intergrade between the two "species"? Just throwing this out there for discussion.:)


I am all for that I was waiting to see if someone else might have thought that. I only say that because some mouth parts matched flavescens more than minerva and some parts leaned more towards flavescens.

It's funny that when you look at allot of the illustrations that we have to make identifications with they are very spares in fine details. Then combine that and mix it up with the changing descriptions over time you end up with a possible hybread or a big ball of muck..LOL..:).

This all part of the reason why I am trying so hard to bring it to species.
Once I can with great certainty call a sample a species I plan to not only make intense notes, but I will make very detailed illustration of all body anatomy and all the keys to help us hobby guy's be able to be very sure and more so in dissections.

Actually I am putting a book of sorts together called the Mayflies of southern Ontario. Yes that will take years but I have a good start.

It is a fly fishermen's intense illustrations and key to "species concept"

There will always be taxonomic errors I know, but its not a science text.
And their stuff has errors to. so all things are equal..LOL.




Mack.
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BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:35 pm
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Posts: 797
That is a really interesting paper that I shall have...


http://www.ephemeroptera-galactica.com/pubs/pub_w/pubwebbj2007n63p1.pdf

This is the other part to the one you posted. The sample in this
is close to mine except in the 4th terga markings.

Mack.
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TaxonDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:36 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1297
Hi Kurt-

much of our discussion may eventually prove mute


Although some who encounter our discussion may wish the discussion were mute, it probably has a better chance of becoming moot. :-)
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:38 pm
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Posts: 797
Yup Roger but we have our fun.
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EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 6:48 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Roger - :):)LOL

I was going to make the spelling correction until I realized that would mess up your humorous post - for those that may wish we were mute, anyway.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 7:03 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
I only say that because some mouth parts matched flavescens more than minerva and some parts leaned more towards flavescens.

The species minerva is in the different genus Leucrocuta and can be most easily differentiated from every other species we've been discussing by its lack of the 7th gill tufts that clearly show in your excellent photos.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 7:17 pm
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Posts: 797
I now want to know more than ever why I thought that before. That 7th gill may have been just what it was that made me go back to flavescens.

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EntomanDecember 23rd, 2012, 7:57 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
The two things that steered me away from marginalis was 1 I could not say for sure that specie fell into my area, and looking at the one
in Heptageiidae of the world part 2 not very close.

Well, as to area - Gonzo and Troutnut have made the point many, many times that while distribution lists contain species known to be found in an area, this should not be construed as evidence that other species aren't there, especially if they are known regionally. As for looking close, compare the head capsules again. IMO, your specimens are a much better match with marginalis regarding this character. The two species (flavescens, marginalis) are so close that I wouldn't be too surprised if in the future they aren't recognized as synonymous, especially if intergrades start popping up. So far, research has shown that the separate species already identified have genetic markers that seem to show some very close together, others much further apart. Maybe you found a new one!:) Without a doubt, key couplets using maculation will have to be revamped (or forgotten) as more studies are done that are less regional in nature and with differences in environmental factors affecting these characters taken into account.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanDecember 23rd, 2012, 9:17 pm
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Posts: 797
Very true Kurt.

Maybe you found a new one!:)


That's what I am always look for. Things change all the time.

I am making it a big point to gather and log data. Because as we have seen
in the past without good data any study is suspect as to being valid.

That is to the best of my understanding why the Interpunctaum and species
were clumped into one. I read that in a paper that past descriptions were to
vague, the species are very similar and allot of the data didn't support the species concepts. I know that there are other reasons like inbreeding.

I will be looking very close at these Heptagenia next year. I will likely head to that area after the holidays, just to see who is who and how they are doing.


Mack

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EntomanMarch 20th, 2013, 7:23 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Mack,

I'm now thinking this is maybe elegantula (prev. diabasia). Though the heavily marked dorsal habitus of flavescens from Burks looks much closer (which heavily influenced my original opinion), the markings on the sterna (particularly the 9th) are the diagnostic ones and clearly more in line with elegantula. Elegantula is also much more common. This opinion is based on Flowers maculation descriptions from her WI key (that I didn't review at the time we worked on this one) and a closer look at Burks IL keys. The caveat is that these Midwestern keys may or may not apply to your specimen. The only thing I'm sure of is the genus.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanMarch 21st, 2013, 2:41 am
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Posts: 797
I really think you nailed it Kurt. I was just looking at the
Biodiversities collection and it is really tight especial the
posterior mark on the 4th tegite. That's cool I really wasn't
all that sure that elegantula reached my area. I suspected
they reached the Detroit area. AH the wind blew the East LOL.


THX again Mack.
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EntomanMarch 21st, 2013, 3:34 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
My pleasure, Mack. Yeah, elegantula didn't reach up there until recently. Dr. Webb et al say it "migrated" back there from out West in '07.:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
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