Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > A few caddis and a baetid, Page 5

Shawnny3 has attached these 6 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
The smaller, more in-focus pupa was still alive, kicking and swimming, hours later while taking photos.  The larger, blurry one died pretty quickly - I think I injured it.  Size 16 and 12, respectively, nearly identical in color.
The smaller, more in-focus pupa was still alive, kicking and swimming, hours later while taking photos. The larger, blurry one died pretty quickly - I think I injured it. Size 16 and 12, respectively, nearly identical in color.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
Side view of the smaller one.  It didn't like to be flipped over - prefers right-side-up.
Side view of the smaller one. It didn't like to be flipped over - prefers right-side-up.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
Underside of a different pupa.  Size 20.
Underside of a different pupa. Size 20.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
Top side, same pupa.
Top side, same pupa.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
A few more of these little rusty baetids I've been finding.  Don't know if the fish have been feeding on them - have only found them here and there.  I tied up a few good-looking dries for them, but I haven't fished them yet.  Size 24.
A few more of these little rusty baetids I've been finding. Don't know if the fish have been feeding on them - have only found them here and there. I tied up a few good-looking dries for them, but I haven't fished them yet. Size 24.
View Full SizeView Full Size (4.2X larger)
Same baetids.
Same baetids.
GONZOAugust 10th, 2012, 1:22 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Gonzo, I've seen a few wasps "pumping" their abdomens on occasion, usually on very hot days, but I don't think most insects have much means of forcing air into their tracheal system in anyway near the same way that creatures with internal, muscle-walled lungs have.

Yeah, Jonathon, I think it's really a question of how many insects might use muscular ventilation (and the mechanisms involved), but it seems the view of that may be somewhat modified by recent research. Here's what The Insects--an Outline of Entomology by Gullan and Cranston (3rd edition, 2005) has to say about it:
Recently, rapid cycles of tracheal compression and expansion have been observed in some insects using X-ray videoing. Movements of the hemolymph and body could not explain these cycles, which appear to be a new mechanism of gas exchange in insects. In addition, large or dialated tracheae may serve as an oxygen reserve when spiracles are closed. In very active insects, especially large ones, active pumping movements of the thorax and/or abdomen ventilate (pump air through) the outer parts of the tracheal system and so the diffusion pathway to the tissues is reduced. Rhythmic thoracic movements and/or dorsi-ventral flattening or telescoping of the abdomen expels air, via the spiracles, from extensible or partially compressible tracheae or from air sacs. Co-ordinated opening and closing of the spiracles usually accompanies ventilatory movements and provides the basis for unidirectional air flow that occurs in the main tracheae of larger insects. Anterior spiracles open during inspiration and posterior ones open during expiration. The presence of air sacs, especially if large or extensive, facilitates ventilation by increasing the volume of tidal air that can be changed as a result of ventilatory movements.

Among other questions that this information raised for me, was whether the "push ups" that I have seen stonefly nymphs doing in the standing water of a collecting dish could be considered to be ventilatory movements or, as I have assumed, simply a way of moving the water so that the "stale" (exhausted) water around their gills could be refreshed. I suspect that it is probably the latter (true ventilation would seem to require an "open" system), but I'm not sure.
PaulRobertsAugust 10th, 2012, 9:13 am
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Looking at images of various caddis spp. pupa it appears some have notable external gill filaments, and others appear clear of them. I'm wondering if (some) caddis pharates have internal storage "air sacks".
Jmd123August 10th, 2012, 12:52 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2384
VERY interesting, Gonzo. Perhaps some new technology (or new application of old technology) has allowed these observations since I got my Masters in entomology in '91. Guess I'm not too surprised that insects have ways of enhancing the air flow into and out of their bodies. Still, it seems that their current size is limited by current oxygen levels, at least that's what the fossil evidence seems to show. And, it saves us from having to tie midges on 6/0 hooks and mayflies on size 20/0 or larger! Just imagine the beetle patterns the size of bowling balls...Then we'd all need 25-foot rods to cast these monsters! But, also imagine the fish we would catch on them...although, the thought of fighting off giant mosquitos while doing so is most definitely an unpleasant thought! I suppose I'm happy with 21% oxygen...

Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
GONZOAugust 10th, 2012, 1:00 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
...although, the thought of fighting off giant mosquitos while doing so is most definitely an unpleasant thought!
...not to mention the horror of giant deer flies (!!!), Jonathon. :)
Jmd123August 10th, 2012, 1:27 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2384
"...giant deer flies..." Uhuhuhuh, the mere thought makes me shudder - they'd probably take a chunk out of you big enough to KILL you! That is, if the giant mosquitos didn't drain you of blood first...

Not sure if I would ever want anyone to invent a time machine. It seems that our geological past is full of nasty creatures, from spiders the size of dinner plates to, well, dinosaurs...I think I'd need to be pretty well armed, shotguns for the giant flying insects, high-powered rifles for the smaller dinosaurs, maybe a few of those old Army LAW rockets for the big ones...or maybe just take an armored personnel carrier with me...

Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Shawnny3August 10th, 2012, 2:36 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
I think we may be thinking about this wrong. In such a world, bugs like dragonflies would likely be swooping down and scooping up trout, not the other way around. Maybe we'd be tying up trout imitations to go "fly fishing".

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
Jmd123August 10th, 2012, 2:41 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2384
Or, perhaps our trout would be the size of marlin??? Bigger bugs, bigger fish...

Then again, maybe WE would be bigger too! It's all a matter of perspective. Of course, we might also have scaly skins and forked tongues...

Jonathon

P.S. Another Troutnut thread gone horribly awry!
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
PaulRobertsAugust 10th, 2012, 2:44 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
I think we may be thinking about this wrong. In such a world, bugs like dragonflies would likely be swooping down and scooping up trout, not the other way around. Maybe we'd be tying up trout imitations to go "fly fishing".

-Shawn

LOL!

Actually we might be cowering in the shrubbery, and crunching down midges ourselves.
Page:12345

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: caddis pupa & caddis adult for >>>> ID please <<<
(7 more)

In the Identify This! Board by Brookyman
1Aug 27, 2014
by Creno
Re: Hydropsychid?
In Hydropsyche Caddisfly Pupa by GONZO
14May 7, 2009
by LittleJ
Re: Live Chimarra pupae
In the Identify This! Board by Millcreek
13Oct 2, 2014
by Millcreek
Re: caddis pupa
In General Discussion by LittleJ
3May 16, 2010
by Creno
Re: Caddis Pupae Question
In the Insect Order Trichoptera by PaulRoberts
40Nov 23, 2015
by Martinlf
Re: What is this bug?
In the Identify This! Board by Diver
5Sep 12, 2016
by Diver
Several new specimens
In General Discussion by Troutnut
0
Re: Pupal exuvia pics
In the Photography Board by Creno
7Aug 5, 2012
by PaulRoberts
Re: My first midge sequence attempt
(2 more)

In the Photography Board by Falsifly
4Apr 30, 2011
by Jesse
Re: Pupa color?
In the Caddisfly Genus Chimarra by Frankcoz
6Apr 5, 2012
by Entoman
Most Recent Posts
Streamer rig set up questions
In Gear Talk by Fliesties22
Re: Stonefly?
In the Identify This! Board by Pdcox (Taxon replied)
Re: Rio Puerco, Northern New Mexico
In Fishing Reports by Red_green_h (Jmd123 replied)
Re: fall bluewinged olive coloration.
In Fly Tying by Partsman
Re: Thankful
In General Discussion by Martinlf (Strmanglr replied)
Re: My (new) place and its environs
In the Photography Board by Jmd123 (Martinlf replied)
Re: Nymphing set up.
In Fly Tying by FC54 (Martinlf replied)
Re: Pretty float down the Yakima Canyon
In Site Updates by Troutnut (Martinlf replied)