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> > I think it in the Mac group ???

Brookyman has attached these 4 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
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BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 4:13 pm
Banned
Posts: 797

We can never truly make a ID from pictures but it does make for great conversation..


This one is odd in circumstance. It hatch May 5th which is way early
for my area. Although water temp were way off.



Body length: 10.65 mm
wind length: 12.54 mm




I since I caught it I said ahHH should be M, vicaium...But the body is to short.

HMMMMMM
Maybe its the was S fuscum...Eyes are dark brown. Old fuscum had
green/ silver-ish colored eye's


Since that time I have be doing other things and never got back to him...

While mounting key anatomy parts...I let he's family "jewels" get to dry when removing them,,,and they just flew away to never be seen again.


I look forward to all your comments.

Mack
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
OldredbarnJune 20th, 2012, 5:09 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Mack,

I'm trying very hard to not pick up the proverbial stick and stir the stinky stuff, but...:)

We know, right, that we are talking about the merged vicarium/fuscum in to the Maccaffertium vicarium? My question..."Riddle me this"...In the color plate section of Caucci/Nastasi's, "Hatches II" they have a series of photos of different "looking" bugs, side by side, as S fuscum & S vicarium...Then in the back of the Leonard's book, "Mayflies of Michigan Trout Streams", they have drawings of male genitalia and the drawnings are different for S fuscum & S vicarium.

Now I have flies that will cover this dilemma, so I'm not losing any sleep over it, but "inquiring minds want to know." :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 5:58 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
OH Dude you did it now...lol

You made me look at my plates from hatch's 2.

The only species I know of that has dark eyes it Ithaca...
and there is no way in **** you know it's Ithaca..
The abdomen is way to dark.

I have been scratching my head bald on this one.

Where is Kurt I bet his got a odd M species in mind for this one..

I wish I had not have lost his family jewels that would have helped.

Did you go see my video on water/ pollution..if not go on my profile
click the twitter link no worries, it goes to youtube..

Thanks Dude


Mack.

Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJune 20th, 2012, 10:13 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Mack -

The cross vein pattern in the first three bulla interspaces and the tergal pattern matches Maccaffertium pudicum.


Spence -

I feel your pain! :) Unfortunately intraspecific variability is a bugaboo fact that can't be worked around. Remember that Hexagenia thread from Canada we worked on a few months back that showed such incredible variability within the species limbata? The same principle is in play with vicarium. As to when and why synonymy happened, let me quote the source:

Stenonema vicarium has been a major source of taxonomic confusion because of the range of variability in larvae and adults... We have examined specimens from a single stream reflecting the three color variations previously thought to be exclusively applicable to vicarium, rivulicolum and fuscum...

Adults of vicarium and fuscum have been separated by size, minor differences in wing venation and penal lobe armature. We have seen larvae matching the description of fuscum that (1) reared to adults with vicarium-like genitalia, (2) reared to rivulicolum-like adults, and (3) reared to adults with both fuscum- and vicarium-like genitalia. This indicates that character states are random in rivulicolum, and this form is not a genetic intermediate. In addition, Koss (1968) could find very little difference in eggs for vicarium and fuscum.

Based on this data, we place fuscum and rivulicolum as junior synonyms of vicarium. S. rivulicolum represents a typological concept defined by drawing an arbitrary line midway through the range of variability of a single species delimited by vicarium-like forms near one extreme and fuscum-like forms near the other.
Biosystematic revision of the genus Stenonema, Bednarik & McCafferty 1979.


My tendancy is to want everything organized in neat little categories. Then I remember Luke's admonition that "species is a concept".... :)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 11:51 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
I new it, I new it.

That you would call it a odd one. How are you Kurt.

That one was puzzling me. I dug myself a Luteum hole in
the ground, jump in,,HHHMMM .."hook line & sinker".
I spent a month on thought's guy,s and forgot all about
this guy.

Inside I always felt that it was not Vicarium, not Was Fuscum,
Not Ithica. I was deeply puzzle. I Guess I left him behind cause
I felt guilty for losing his jewels.. That is a major key to
unlocking the almost mythical mystery's. The dark eyes was what
made it my mystery. In references I could find eye coloring
mentioned much.


And on the coloring subject, I found 3 different color
marked Luteum's on the same rock...For general fishing
ID stream side colored marking work out very good in most cases.


Wow thinking of it now I didn't Pudicum was geographically mine.
WOW now I have more reading to do...cool.


THX Kurt


Mack
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 1:04 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Mack

Ha! Not so quick, Mack. Sorry if I misled you with my comment, but I only meant that it matches well with the diagrams of pudicum. The problem is the characters listed in the descriptions are of imagos and duns don't necessarily match up. For example, the eyes would be too far apart if this were an imago. Here's a photo series of Jason's (Troutnut) from years ago that matches yours extremely well. http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/288. Interesting, huh?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 1:06 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Hi Mack,

I'm afraid I can't agree with Kurt's assessment:

The cross vein pattern in the first three bulla interspaces and the tergal pattern matches Maccaffertium pudicum.


Here is an example of Maccaffertium pudicum that Jason collected from one of my favorite Pocono streams:
http://www.troutnut.com/specimen/748

Here is another example:
http://bugguide.net/node/view/365433/bgpage

See the differences between these examples and your specimen? M. pudicum usually has "3-5 crossveins in each of first 6 interspaces of bulla region, crowded in at least 6 interspaces and forming a curved streak." It also has hindwings that are "broadly darkened on outer margins." (Bednarik and McCafferty, 1979) The known range of M. pudicum also appears to be much more restricted than M. vicarium, limited (as far as I know) to the Appalachians from northern Alabama up through New York.

M. vicarium usually has "2 or 3 crossveins in each of first 3 bulla interspaces, not crowded to slightly crowded" and the hindwings are "not darkened on outer margins." Bednarik and McCafferty give the size range for males as "9-14 mm." (So, your male specimen is not too small.) I have seen some vicarium duns/spinners that were easily as large as the upper part of the range they give for the larvae ("10-18 mm"), but they were all females.
BrookymanJune 21st, 2012, 1:40 am
Banned
Posts: 797
Hi Gonzo

You must admit Kurt`s photo choices here are very compelling

You are also dead on = with Kurt`s compelling Case.


Looking close at the ventral view of Kurt`s ` pick the
segment makings on the first 6 are really tight too.


Range of distribution seem to be hold an ACE in the hole on us,

Mack.
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 2:51 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
You are right about the wings, Gonzo - somehow I got my 6's and 3's turned around.:) The abdominal pattern compared against the diagrams in B & M still intrigues me though, particularly the lateral sworls. In any event, the eyes look too far apart for either species. Perhaps that is because we are working with duns?

BTW - what do you think of Jason's dun in the link?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 9:28 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
BTW - what do you think of Jason's dun in the link?

Both the dun in Jason's photos and Mack's specimen look like fairly typical M. vicarium duns to me. As for the eyes, notice that Bednarik and McCafferty use two sets of illustrations to depict varying degrees of separation in vicarium males.

Depending on the degree of infuscation, the dorsal abdominal markings of vicarium and pudicum duns/spinners can look much the same. (There are other examples of this in Jason's vicarium photos.) I believe that the lateral abdominal illustration of pudicum is intended (in part) as a comparison between M. pudicum and M. carlsoni (illustrated below pudicum). M. carlsoni is very similar and overlaps pudicum in the southern part of its range. The authors say that they "regard the adult abdominal maculation in these two species as a reliable character" and then reference these illustrations.
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 11:34 am
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Depending on the degree of infuscation, the dorsal abdominal markings of vicarium and pudicum duns/spinners can look much the same. (There are other examples of this in Jason's vicarium photos.) I believe that the lateral abdominal illustration of pudicum is intended (in part) as a comparison between M. pudicum and M. carlsoni (illustrated below pudicum). M. carlsoni is very similar and overlaps pudicum in the southern part of its range. The authors say that they "regard the adult abdominal maculation in these two species as a reliable character" and then reference these illustrations.

Yes, that is my understanding of the text as well. Very Good, Gonzo. Makes sense. I'll edit Troutnuts specimen. Thanks for the help!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
OldredbarnJune 21st, 2012, 12:04 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
We have been down this bumpy road many, many times and I guess we'll just have to live with it until, oh happy day, they finally get around to putting the final cap on it...:) Sometime long after I'm gone, no doubt, if ever... I must admit that I'm enjoying the ride, to keep this metaphor consistent, and wouldn't miss it for the world...:)

So. Let me see if I've got this right...For this old-timer, a Mustad 94840 size 12 Sparkle Dun, and I'm good to go...:) Maybe a size smaller, just in case, with an appropriate spinner to match...:)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 12:23 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
So. Let me see if I've got this right...For this old-timer, a Mustad 94840 size 12 Sparkle Dun, and I'm good to go...:) Maybe a size smaller, just in case, with an appropriate spinner to match...:)

Yeah, that's the long and the short of it, Spence, though you might want to include one of Mark L's excellent soft-hackled "flymphs" just for good measure. ;)
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 12:34 pm
Site Editor
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Yes, and perhaps a few flatheaded nymphs for fishing on a greased leader in the shallows. If a fellow can get his butt out of bed to fish in the morning before the sun hits the water they can be deadly!
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 21st, 2012, 2:04 pm
Banned
Posts: 797
I love it !!!

I am very compelled to your photo choice.
It's just your's seems like the wings are
more greenish.

They ( CAT"S ) are tuff stuff ID.


Mack
Banned for threatening another user and then trying to circumvent a kinder "soft" ban with fake accounts

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