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> > Stenacron interpunctatum / heterotarsale

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BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 2:13 pm
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Hi everybody especially Spence I am trying this out.

Mack

I bring you Miss Heterotarsale..
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OldredbarnJune 20th, 2012, 4:35 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Hey Mack! You figured it out, man! :) Nice photo. That time stamp is 06/10/2012...Right? June 10th.

The dun of this bug is one of the prettiest flies, IMHO, that we anglers lump under "sulphers" or "Light Cahills"...

The heterotarsale is now...Stenacron interpunctatum...I will wait for the pro's to chime it, but this bug might be Maccaffertium ithica. (?) In Leonard he mentions that it was nigh on impossible to separate heterotarsale and interpunctatum so it appears that they lumped them together finally and changed the name to protect the innocent...:)

Spence

I'm leaning towards your S interpuntatum: "...with faint dark spots between the compound eyes and behind the black-bordered ocelli." Leonard It appears to have some black spots up there on the head.
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 4:51 pm
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Your the man Spence.

I actually am attached to her...My son & I were collecting sample for study...Over night she hatched in my tank...

Then she molted. It's kind of like raising children when the hearts in the right place..


I time and date stamp all them so I

known when and where it was in time, when I file everything.

I probably have 250+ photo's on the computer to edit still.

The S Hetrotarsale is my favorite and I feel the prettiest of all them



Thank again Spence.


Mack
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BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 5:04 pm
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Funny you mention Ithaca...

I was colecting and studying sample nymphs that even in micro biopsies were looking like Ithaca. After reading all off heavy reading the only reference to my geographical range was McDougnha in the 1930's reporting them near Quebec...

And then ""KABOOM"" I reared one to find it to be Modestum.

These creators can be very hard to lock them down to a specie.
Especially under the microscope. I swear it makes you see things
that aren't there.


Mack
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BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 7:02 pm
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I should have said ( S, I, Hetrotarsale )

Yup your right I believe her to be ( Stenacron, Interpuctatum, Hetrotarsale ).

Ah Wait hold on, I am checking a taxo update list I got from Roger.



WOW...Meeeee Sooooo Sadddd. It is just Stenacron, Interpuctatum...I got my first copy of hatch's in 1984. The very first two Latina biology words I could say was..Stenonema & Hetrotarsale...
In the 84 copy its Stenacron hetrotarsale, in my 2006 copy its
Stenonema Hetrotarsale. I feel for Al, Loosing Bob, and trying to keep up.

In the end all the changes will be worth it cause that confusion will be simplified
for the future generation. My son calls MacCaffertatum MACK..for short.




I will tell everybody from just a fly fishermen's stand point.

Dr McCafferty, Luke, Jeff, and all of though's guy have
done more for our world ecology in 30 years than all contributors
have in the last 200..My hat is way off my head to them.



On this sudject Ie "stenonema" I have.

Needham 1935 biology of a mayfly
Lewis 69, 74a 74b, 78.
Jensen 74
Flowers 1975
McCafferty 79 biosystematic revisions
86 feeding habits stenacron
McCafferty & Wang 2004 ?
McCafferty & Webb 2008
Burks 1953

Just on this group...Its like " Dude " these guy are it.

I can see why the revisions were done ...But and I agree
with all I have read in 6 month. BUT< me still me sooooo sad >.


In my youthful "heart" she will always be Heterotarsale..


Mack.




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BrookymanJune 20th, 2012, 8:00 pm
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Posts: 797
The pictinated crown maxillae setae, and the gill, styles separated Ithaca. I have found that most of the Stenacrons I have reviewed all have around 8-9 pictinated spines and no or very little setae hair on the maxillae crown. That is the case with this one. I had 6 that were identical to each other to work with. This gal is one of the six..The others live on my slides now.

Dr McCafferty dived them very well in biosystmatic 1979.


Larva of S.Ithaca are are distinguished by their lack of lateral abdominal
projection from 1st segment to 6th. Boy that keep me hanging on a
fine thread till that Modestum hatched...The black ventral staining is just
to unreliable. I only use Staining marks now when sorting the live one out into groups.

The nymphs that I have that looked like Ithaca all had 6 pictinated spines + fine setae hairs like Ithaca.


I am tell you the s*** is tough stuff. But I now wish I would have stayed
in school and had done this instead (woodworking engineering ) for a living


Mack.
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EntomanJune 20th, 2012, 11:49 pm
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Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Well, I'm having a bit of a problem following the conversation. Not surprising I guess in light of all the name changes. Here's my take, FWIW.

Not Maccaffertium ithaca - wrong tergal pattern; transverse bands aren't thick enough.

Not Stenacron interpunctatum - specimen lacks an obvious black blotch connecting (or coming close to connecting) two or three cross veins in the bulla region of the forewing. Those little thickened crossveins and spots have fooled me before.:)

What is it? Possibly M. terminatum, exiguum, or luteum. All three can have solid thin transverse lines on the terga. I'll get back to you on this. Some females are harder to deal with than others....:)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 12:09 am
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Northern CA & ID

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Mack -

BTW, how big was it? That might help.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
BrookymanJune 21st, 2012, 12:35 am
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Posts: 797
Mr Kurt.

She was 8 3/4 mm.

If it helps I have photos of her as a
nymph, nymphal shuck, and subimago

I do not know if, or, how to add then to this.

And have party pictures. That's when I put 5 or 6 nymphs together
all close in many way so i can latter look at if any differences
at another time.


Mack.
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BrookymanJune 21st, 2012, 12:49 am
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It was me Kurt.

I went of course on the divisional the differences of
Ithaca Vs Interpuctatum. To eliminate Ithaca

Geographically they are not found in the Toronto area.
To the best I can reference, with my manuals.

How ever Jokingly speaking Maybe Ithaca doesn't like
Global warming so the will invade Canada. If so I have
very bad new for Mr Ithaca...IT Hot as bleep here..LMAO


Mack
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GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 11:05 am
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"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
This looks like one of the Stenacron species to me, though I won't take a stand on which one.

Although a dark dash connecting crossveins in the bulla region of the forewing is a common trait of species in this genus, some species (or specimens) have these markings reduced to a series of (disconnected or nearly connected) dark dots or even a single dark dot on crossveins in this area. (S. carolina is one example of this.) The infuscated crossveins (thickened in the middle or anteriorly) in the basal costal, subcostal, and radial interspaces are another trait of species in this genus. (See Lewis 1974, Burks 1953, and Spieth 1947).

There seems to be a fair amount of (DNA-driven) evidence suggesting that the current concept of S. interpunctatum contains more than one "good" species. That's not surprising, given the large number of synonyms that have been rolled into this concept.
OldredbarnJune 21st, 2012, 11:44 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
There seems to be a fair amount of (DNA-driven) evidence suggesting that the current concept of S. interpunctatum contains more than one "good" species. That's not surprising, given the large number of synonyms that have been rolled into this concept.


Nicely put G! :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 12:08 pm
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"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Thanks, Spence. ;)

Here's what Ball, Hebert, Burian, and Webb (2005) report:

...we observed 3 distinct groups among 9 specimens of Stenacron interpunctatum, a taxon that has long been suspected to be a species complex, despite the failure to identify consistent morphological characters enabling their discrimination (Spieth 1947, Lewis 1974). Sequence divergences between these 3 groups were large (1017%, far greater than any other intraspecific divergences we observed) but were consistent with the sequence divergences typically observed between other congeneric species pairs. Hence, our data provide the first genetic evidence for the existence of a S. interpunctatum species complex. Moreover, these large genetic divergences did not correlate with geographic distance. Specimens from the Androscoggin River (AR) population in Maine fell into 2 genetically distinct groups.

EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 12:18 pm
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Northern CA & ID

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This looks like one of the Stenacron species to me

I agree Lloyd, but having been burned over the blotch or spot character before, I'm hesitant to go against it. The far wing looks to almost have one, but current keys are pretty adamant about this character, and I'm not sure close gets the cigar.:) M. exiguum can be ruled out over distribution and M. luteum over size, but M. terminatum fits the bill in both. Though this species is normally very pale, do you see anything that would rule it out other than color? Not to confuse things even more, but there remains the possibility of other heptageniids I suppose, the females can be especially difficult.:) BTW - the unmarked hind legs are interesting.

Mack - Do you have any ventral shots showing the last abdominal segs? Hoping for a good look at the subanal plate.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
PaulRobertsJune 21st, 2012, 12:26 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Well...I'm not following really and not well edified in the latest, but I look at it and say no M ithaca -which looks like a small pale vicariuam. It looks like Stenacron to me -long lanky, very pale, with the bright orange abdomen (eggs).
EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 12:58 pm
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Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
There seems to be a fair amount of (DNA-driven) evidence suggesting that the current concept of S. interpunctatum contains more than one "good" species

The concept of speciation seems to follow trends and trends usually work like pendulums. The later part of the last century saw a lot of lumping in response to all the splitting that took place earlier that just couldn't hold up under the scrutiny of larger sampling and extensive rearing experiments associating nymphs and adults. Perhaps the pendulum is swinging back a little.

FWIW observationally, what's also interesting is while the concept of species (excluding new discoveries) was shrinking, families and genera were expanding.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 1:29 pm
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"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
The far wing looks to almost have one, but current keys are pretty adamant about this character, and I'm not sure close gets the cigar.:) M. exiguum can be ruled out over distribution and M. luteum over size, but M. terminatum fits the bill in both. Though this species is normally very pale, do you see anything that would rule it out other than color?


What current keys? Lewis (1974) gives "2 or 3 crossveins below bulla connected by a black dash or with a black spot in the middle of one or more of the veins" as this character for the "interpunctatum group" (now Stenacron). Burks (1953) expresses the character as "crossveins below bulla often connected by a longitudinal, black mark, always at least a black spot in the middle of one, two, or three crossveins below bulla." The McCafferty and Webb (2008) key that says "Forewings with distinct black spot joining or nearly joining some crossveins below bullae between R1 and R2" is not inconsistent with this, and descriptions of S. carolina and S. pallidum (Lewis 1974) specifically state that the dash or spot either does not or usually does not connect crossveins in those species, so it's not a matter of being "close."

As for M. terminatum, as far as I am aware, spiracular markings are absent (See Bednarik and McCafferty, 1979) and it lacks the multiple thickened crossveins in the forward basal portion of the wing. There appears to be one darkened spiracular mark on this specimen and the basal crossveins are thickened as in Stenacron...and that would seem to a case of being "close but no cigar." ;)

BrookymanJune 21st, 2012, 1:59 pm
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Hi Gonzo Kurt Spence.

To clean up the confusion that was my fault.

I loaded more pic's of her and more info on
my tentative findings.
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EntomanJune 21st, 2012, 6:27 pm
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Northern CA & ID

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Gonzo,

What current keys?... The McCafferty and Webb (2008) key that says "Forewings with distinct black spot joining or nearly joining some crossveins below bullae between R1 and R2"

Well, there's one for starters. Here's another:

Wings with two or three crossveins below bullae between veins R1 & R2 connected or nearly connected by dark pigmentation, rarely only a dark spot. AIONA, Merritt, et. al., 2008

I'd list a few more, but my sense is your question is rhetorical, so it shouldn't be necessary. The point has been made many times before that thickened costal & subcostal cross veins do not necessarily Stenacron make. My understanding of the character, regardless of how many there are or how close to or how many connecting crossvein(s) may be involved is that they (spots) need to be intracellular. Spank my knuckles with a ruler, but I just didn't see it in this specimen.:) I must also confess to missing the lack of banding on the hind femora, another Stenacron trait.

BTW, I'm glad you're back!:)

Kurt


"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
GONZOJune 21st, 2012, 7:26 pm
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"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
My understanding of the character, regardless of how many there are or how close to or how many connecting crossvein(s) may be involved is that they (spots) need to be intracellular. Spank my knuckles with a ruler, but I just didn't see it in this specimen.:) I must also confess to missing the lack of banding on the hind femora, another Stenacron trait.

Consider your knuckles spanked, Kurt. Do the photos of the nymphs that Mack posted help to resolve your doubts about this being Stenacron? http://www.troutnut.com/topic/6752
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