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| Crepuscular | April 4th, 2012, 4:47 pm | |
 Posts: 923 | I collected all of these from the same rock. The nymph on the right might be Epeorus fragilis. Close ups are all of the one on the right    | |
| Entoman | April 4th, 2012, 5:35 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Wow, You have a cornucopia there!:) The four on the left look to be vitreus. The big boy in the center is pleuralis? The far right one and the little guy below and to the left are probably fragilis. Based on the substantially different levels of development, I have my concerns whether they are the same species though. Could one be the very similar appearing frisoni? I don't think the latter has been recorded for PA - yet. When I get home this evening, I'll look into it. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Falsifly | April 4th, 2012, 5:54 pm | |
 Posts: 661 | Wow, You have a cornucopia there!:) So Kurt, which one is the cornucopia? Just curious, I want to stay on top of things.:) Eric, were those taken with a new camera? | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Crepuscular | April 4th, 2012, 6:21 pm | |
Posts: 923 | No new camera yet. Taken through my scope. | |
| Entoman | April 4th, 2012, 10:27 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Just curious, I want to stay on top of things.:) No problem, Al. I was excitedly referring to the very rare E. cornucopia and forgot to italicize. It's the one in the photo...:) Eric - Are you able to look at their femoral flanges and gills from the first segments? Also, what about punctatus as a possibility in this mix? The four on the left I'd break into two groups and look closer at them. The top ones are marked a little differently from the bottom two. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | April 4th, 2012, 11:28 pm | |
Posts: 923 |
Well I won't be back in the office until Monday so it will have to wait until then to get some more photos. What exactly are you looking for? Gills on seg 1 are elongated. I was really relying on the head capsule outer margin with abrupt transition near outer anterior corners of compound eyes which is one character that separates fragilis from frisoni in Burian 2008. But punctatus isn't even included in that key. As far as the E. vitreus on the left in the photo I'm pretty sure they are all the same but I'll have to take a closer look. They've been pickled for a week so some may have faded etc. | |
| Jesse | April 4th, 2012, 11:47 pm | |
 | They are some really great shots! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Entoman | April 5th, 2012, 1:35 am | |
Posts: 2604 | I was asking about the femoral flanges and gills of all the specimens. What I'm looking for is whether the flanges are blunt or pointed. As far as the gills, whether they are elongate or not and whether the sclerotized strip is angled at about 45 or 90° is also helpful. A ventral of the posterolateral spines is useful for the same reason.I was really relying on the head capsule outer margin with abrupt transition near outer anterior corners of compound eyes which is one character that separates fragilis from frisoni That would be diagnostic if this were a New England male. The lack of concavity of the mesonotum bothers me not a little, too. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Konchu | April 5th, 2012, 9:09 am | |
 Site Editor IndianaPosts: 505 | Epeorus frisoni probably has a very restricted range of geographic distribution, so be cautious. | |
| Entoman | April 5th, 2012, 3:55 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | You are right, Luke. I understand that frisoni is a larger species found at higher elevations further North. Just looking to eliminate the possibilities by means other than distribution, if possible. The size difference between the far right specimen and the little one below it is interesting. Isn't size one way to discriminate between the two species? Can there be this much size discrepancy within the species at this time of year? The four on the left also intrigue me. At first I thought they were just variations of the same species, but look at the terga. The upper two specimens are marked identically and the bottom two are marked identically. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | April 5th, 2012, 9:26 pm | |
Posts: 923 | What's a matter Kurt? Three species from the same rock isn't enough for you? ;).I would not be surprised to see a difference in size. How about male vs female? The E. vitreus on the left are different sizes no? All of the head capsules look the same.  | |
| Falsifly | April 5th, 2012, 9:51 pm | |
Posts: 661 | The size difference between the far right specimen and the little one below it is interesting. Isn't size one way to discriminate between the two species? Can there be this much size discrepancy within the species at this time of year? But notice the difference in wing pad development, couldn't this just be a difference in instar? | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Entoman | April 5th, 2012, 10:51 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Eric - A triple is nice, but maybe you hit a home run!:) The E. vitreus on the left are different sizes no? All of the head capsules look the same. Yes. That is confirmed now with your latest photo. The fascinating thing is there are two with dark tergal rectangles in both sizes and two with dark triangles in both sizes. I assumed it's because you have both male and female represented (one in each size which is cool), but couldn't quite make out their entire heads to know for sure. Al - But notice the difference in wing pad development, couldn't this just be a difference in instar? Yes. That's correct. What is interesting though is how far behind. Unless it's a different species, its hatches must trickle off in very low numbers over a long period, even if the nymphs are abdundant. BTW - Thank you both for confirming my original calls with such conviction. I'll stop second guessing myself now... See how I cover my bases?:) | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | April 6th, 2012, 12:17 am | |
Posts: 923 | I still want to be sure that it's E. fragilis. I sent some photos to D. Funk at Stroud but haven't heard back. He said he has never collected it in PA. I have two others I'd like to talk to about it. Luke what do you think? I'd like to hear Gonzo's opinion as well. | |
| Entoman | April 6th, 2012, 1:42 am | |
Posts: 2604 | Eric -Luke what do you think? I'd like to hear Gonzo's opinion as well. Me too. Though, I'm reasonably confident in fragilis. I still want to be sure that it's E. fragilis. I sent some photos to D. Funk at Stroud but haven't heard back. He said he has never collected it in PA. Maybe he hasn't, but others have. The species is reported from PA. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Konchu | April 6th, 2012, 8:01 pm | |
Site Editor IndianaPosts: 505 | When were these collected? How big? | |
| Crepuscular | April 7th, 2012, 2:44 pm | |
Posts: 923 | Luke they were collected March 30th. The E. fragilis is about 9mm. | |
| Entoman | April 7th, 2012, 3:04 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Isn't that way too big for fragilis? Even the matures are supposed to be well under 7mm. This new info shoots a big hole in my previously expressed confidence.:) Not to throw more cold water on our attempts, but... Burian, et. al. - 2008 A closer look at the abdomen does show paired tergal spots. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | April 7th, 2012, 4:18 pm | |
Posts: 923 | Maybe I'm wrong abouth the length. I am going from memory. Mine is not very good. We may need to table this until Monday. When I can look at it again. I will try an collect some more specimens as well. | |
| Entoman | April 7th, 2012, 4:58 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Sounds good. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
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