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Scruffyfish has attached this picture to aid in identification. The message is below.
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ScruffyfishMarch 12th, 2012, 9:21 am
Posts: 6This mayfly comes off in my small pond in mid may in New Hampshire. I believe it's a hendrickson? What do you think?
KonchuMarch 12th, 2012, 1:42 pm
Site Editor
Indiana

Posts: 503
size?
OldredbarnMarch 12th, 2012, 2:27 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2601
I agree with Luke here, size does matter. If it is say around a 16/18 standard hook size I might hazzard a quess...Though the bug boys might say I'm treading on thin ice :)...It looks like a Paraleptophebia of some sort...Female dun.

Luke...How's that for giving myself enough rope to hang myself...:)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
CrepuscularMarch 12th, 2012, 2:53 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
Spence, I dont want to leave ya hanging alone...how about Leptophlebia? The "small pond" is why I say Leptophlebia. Especially if it's about a #14.
OldredbarnMarch 12th, 2012, 3:21 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2601
Spence, I dont want to leave ya hanging alone...how about Leptophlebia? The "small pond" is why I say Leptophlebia. Especially if it's about a #14.


Eric...So you are going to jump in to the deep end along with me, eh?! :) Well wade on in then! The water is fine...For the time being.

From a general impression here, we really can't see the things that the true bug ider's would like to see, it is a female after-all, but there really isn't much to go on in terms of something to compare its size to and these things can be deceptive. I do think I may be off due to the "rotundness" of her abdomen and the Paraleps are slender...But it doesn't appear to be as big of an abdomen that the Leptophebia appear to have.

I don't know...I'm sticking with my first guess...:)...and how about Michigan in the Final Four??? ;)

Spence

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 4:21 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Guys,

Though it's built a lot like an ephemerellid, there are too many characters that don't match up, not to mention the wrong habitat. I also don't think this is Paraleptophlebia because of the overall look. It is also the wrong habitat for paraleps. If the cerci look this substantially subequal due to a foreshortening artifact of the photo and are in fact as long or longer, this could perhaps be L. johnsoni. I think they are the only Nearctic species of Leptophlebia where the terminal isn't weak and substantially reduced in length.

Scruffy - Females are tough enough to start with, and the photo lacks enough resolution to enlarge for getting a good look at the tails (I'm looking for brown rings at the joinings and evidence of artifact or tail damage) as well as wing venation. Perhaps if we knew the size or had a sharper photo, we could take it a little further?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
PaulRobertsMarch 12th, 2012, 4:37 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Well... how about Caudatella? Those legs made me think "male", but it's not. I believe Caudatella is a "sprawler" on vegetation. I believe I captured and photo'd a nymph a while back but didn't positively ID it. It had come from a pond-like stretch of a CNY stream.
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 4:54 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Paul -

Caudatella differences in tail length are much more dramatic than this. The ones I've seen vary anywhere from 2/3 to 1/3, most less than half. Besides, they are strictly a western mountain head water genus usually found at pretty good elevation.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularMarch 12th, 2012, 5:21 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
Kurt, I think the terminal filament in L. johnsoni is reduced, at least in the imago, but I'm not positive on that. Does that character change from sub imago to imago?
OldredbarnMarch 12th, 2012, 5:28 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2601
This mayfly comes off in my small pond in mid may in New Hampshire.

Though it's built a lot like an ephemerellid, there are too many characters that don't match up, not to mention the wrong habitat.


I know we are all out the proverbial limb here, but I'm not hanging my hat on habitat...I think I'm doubting the "pond" emergence and depending again on size, if we ever get an update here, I may be leaning to a female "ephemerellid" just about to moult in to a spinner...The wings may be a tad too light dun for my first pick of Paralep...

Is there a nearby stream? I get mayflies on my windows from time-to-time and I don't have a pond or stream right in my backyard...These guys and girls wander a good distance away from home to the point that it sometimes is a miracle that they manage to carry on the species.

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 5:38 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Eric,

Kurt, I think the terminal filament in L. johnsoni is reduced,At least in the imago, but I'm not positive on that. Does that character change from sub imago to imago?

That's true for most in the genus, Johnsoni being the exception. It is among the smallest of the lepto's and has wing venation so reduced that it isn't a reliable character to differentiate it from paraleps. Tails are the key. That's why I'm looking for rings (which I think I see) and evidence that there is some damage or foreshortening going on. On the reverse side of tail lengths, no leptophlebid that I'm aware of has subequal or reduced cerci as this specimen appears to have.

As to character changes in the tails from dun to spinner, the relationship stays the same, though the lengths are exaggerated. Tail pigment patterns carry through as well. The big problem is lack of female characters in the descriptions. Sometimes which ones are either male only or work for both can be a bit unclear.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 6:06 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Spence,

Good points about the habitat. Wing color isn't an issue as Paraleptophlebia can be all over the dun scale, often w/ a lot of brown influence from venation. The hind wings look a little large and too elliptical for Paraleps though, and they lack the costal projections of an ephemerellid. The only thing I can make out with the forewings that may be a small help is the pronounced curve of the subcostal vein below the stigmatic region. This is a trait I see in Leptophlebia. Notice in other genera it either roughly parallels the costal or the curve is more sweeping and less abrupt.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularMarch 12th, 2012, 7:45 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
Kurt, are you saying that the reduced terminal filament only occurs in the imago? as usual I'm confused. Thanks for being patient with me.http://www.flyfishingentomology.com/MayflySpeciesDisplay.php
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 7:53 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Sorry for the confusion, Eric. My bad. See edited post above.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
EntomanMarch 12th, 2012, 9:08 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
I need to clarify a little further on the tails and why I'm concerned about us being misled by an artifact in the photo. In addition to foreshortening, it is also possible that the short cercus we think we're seeing may in fact be the terminal. Contributing to the confusion is the near side cercus being obscured by the leaf, making it appear short. Besides having a basic understanding of entomology, it seems we need to be up on photo forensics as well! :)LOL
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
TroutnutMarch 13th, 2012, 4:14 am
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2727
I don't have much time to devote to this one, but my impression from the general "look" of this mayfly is that you guys are on the right track with Leptophlebia.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
ScruffyfishMarch 13th, 2012, 10:48 am
Posts: 6Thanks for all your respounces to my question.

The mayfly comes off my pond, seen it hatch in mid May. I've included an enlarged photo and a photo of the spinner also, although it's not as sharp as I would have liked. It will give a relationship to it's size to my finger. It's about a size 14 in relation to a hook size.

Prior to digging the pond I would occassionally see this spinner on window screens, since the pond is in place I now have seen it coming off the the edges of the pond. The nymphs crawl out to the waters edge and the dunns fly off. Hope this helps?






OldredbarnMarch 13th, 2012, 11:25 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2601
Prior to digging the pond I would occassionally see this spinner on window screens, since the pond is in place I now have seen it coming off the the edges of the pond.


Hmmm...

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
ScruffyfishMarch 13th, 2012, 11:58 am
Posts: 6I guess I should have also mentioned, there is a stream about half mile from the pond and also a large lake. After re-posting I googled Leptophlebia and saw a Youtube video of the nymph and hatching that looks very close to my mayfly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDTMFVHxXLk
OldredbarnMarch 13th, 2012, 12:30 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2601
Scruff,

Nice vid...I think we have a winner! :) Leptophlebia, come on down!

I think Eric called it first...Cudos Eric.


Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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