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> > Sparkle Dun vs Compara-dun

WbranchJanuary 14th, 2012, 1:33 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Can anyone tell me the difference between these two flies other than the use of an Antron/Zlon/synthetic trailing shuck on the Sparkle Dun to a traditional hair or fiber tail on the Compara-dun?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
OldredbarnJanuary 14th, 2012, 3:14 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Matt,

The Sparkle Dun is supposed to be an emerger pattern and the "regular" comparadun covers the dun post sheading the shuck etc. Just prior to take off. :)

I like to tie in a couple wood-duck or mallard fibers, as a tail, before I tie in some trailing shuck material over it...Z-Lon or whatever. Rene Harrop uses synthetic dubbing (longish fibers) for the trailing shuck. I've seen some folk playing around with the fluffy lower parts of feathers for this as well. The stuff we usually toss out.

The traditional comparadun, as you no doubt know, is just a split tail usually made with spade hackle fibers, dubbed body, and deer hair wing in 180 degree arc.

My fishing partner liked to complain that things like micro-fibbets and not using enough spade hackle for the tail were wrong and failed to help float the fly properly. Now, he also used facial hair for the wing, which is not hollow like the deer usually used by Nastasi and Caucci originaly and later Craig Matthews for his version of the comparadun, the Sparkle dun. To each their own, but floatation can be a problem with regular comparaduns...The split tail looks correct to the natural, but its really there to help it float better. IMHO

I like to use wrapped hackle and Datus Proper's technique which leaves the wing flat on the bottom and the 180 degree arc as well...A comparadun wing basically without deer hair. In the "Benchside Ref." book there are a few examples of how to do this. Some guys just wrap the hackle and snip it off below the hook shank...I think this is the lazy-man's way of doing it...:) I will admit to doing it myself though on flies size 20 and smaller.

Not sure this helps Matt...

Spence

A little controversy...Swisher, on his web site has a "history of the no-hackle" fly, and shows a comparadun from either the late 60's or early 70's that he hints pre-dates the one made famous over your way...Whatever!

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
PaulRobertsJanuary 14th, 2012, 3:30 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
I am not aware of a difference. I use both, the Antron being my lazy version -faster to tie and low maintenance. (Although a shuck can be a trigger, for some Ephemerella esp), For tiny Baetid derivatives I like the fiber tail.

I also tie a hackled version I used for large active flies like Stenonema/(now Macaffertium).

I think the original was the "Haystack" -with deer hair tail. I also THINK it was an Adirondack NY pattern -possibly Fran Betters?? At least I associate the two.
WbranchJanuary 14th, 2012, 3:42 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Paul,

Back in the late 1980's or early 1990's Craig Matthews of Blue Ribbon Flies in W Yellowstone came out with a fly he called the "Sparkle Dun". I'm thinking Cuacci & Natashi "developed" the Compara-dun (is that right?) Both seem similar to me in that they have deer or antelope, or whatever you want to use, upright wings that are perpendicular to the hook shank and viewed from the front have between a 120 degree and 180 degree "fan". Matthews used sparkle yarn to differentiate between his fly and the other (I think)

I'm at the last few flies of a dozen PMD #18 Compara-duns and decided to tie a few with yellow tri-lobal yarn and got curious about the recipe variances.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
DoublespeyJanuary 14th, 2012, 4:00 pm
Posts: 61
Add some hackle fibers for the tail, and include some rusty zelon with it, and you have the best of both worlds. Some shuck in the tail, and a good floater. That's the compromise I have used. I'm even getting some wet, sparkle, more grey natural look for my deer hair wing by tying some "EP crinkly grey synthetic fibers in first that spread out, and then flair the deer hair comparadun wing butted up against them, and directly behind. I do like the comparadun, or sparkle duns. Don't really know what fishes the best, but it does fish better than my parachute patterns.
PaulRobertsJanuary 14th, 2012, 4:02 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Yeah, Matthews made the Sparkle derivative of C&N's Comparadun. The original was the Haystack. I'll Google it to see...

Well that was quick...

http://www.rogueflyfishers.org/otf/jun04.htm
" Haystack flies were developed over 50 years ago by Fran Betters when he was still in high school."
OldredbarnJanuary 14th, 2012, 5:15 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Hey! Didn't anyone read Spence's post above?! :)
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
EntomanJanuary 15th, 2012, 4:05 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hey! Didn't anyone read Spence's post above?! :)

LOL:) Good one Spence. A bit rhetorical... but a good one.

Can anyone tell me the difference between these two flies other than the use of an Antron/Zlon/synthetic trailing shuck on the Sparkle Dun to a traditional hair or fiber tail on the Compara-dun?

That is the only difference, Matt.

There, question answered with just five words.:)

I think the original was the "Haystack" -with deer hair tail. I also THINK it was an Adirondack NY pattern -possibly Fran Betters??

You're maybe right Paul, it was Betters according to some sources, though some also argue that the pattern is of unknown origin and predates the Betters' incarnation by many years. It may have possibly sprouted an orphan in several other regions.:) Kind of a Hairwing Royal Coachman/Royal Wulff thing, I guess.

"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
DoublespeyJanuary 15th, 2012, 9:33 am
Posts: 61
The variation that I see suggested on the comparaduns is what type of hair do you like to create the wing. One with less air in it that you roll into position on the hook. Some don't even worry about creating the 180, or thereabouts on their initial positioning, they do that at the end with their fingers. Or do you like a hair that has some air in it that will flare somewhat. I had a good comparadun piece of hair I used for a long time that was short with short dark tips that I often didn't even have to stack, but then I have watched demo tiers use a piece of hair that was far longer than my hair, and they chose it for its grey color maybe. But it all will have a smaller diameter of hair. I asked a demo tier one time about the need for air in the hair after he had tied a comparadun. The guy said, "AIR?! You do not want any air in the hair! That just makes it hard to position."
OldredbarnJanuary 15th, 2012, 12:16 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
http://www.dougswisher.com/Important%20Past%20Fly%20Pattern/flies_from_the_past.htm
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
WbranchJanuary 15th, 2012, 12:56 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Doublespey wrote:

"Some don't even worry about creating the 180, or thereabouts on their initial positioning, they do that at the end with their fingers."

I have never tried to achieve the 180 during the initial wing placement. My goal when installing the wing is to first secure the hair tightly so it won't rotate on the shank, then after clipping the ends so they are tapered I cover them with a few layers of thread and lift them up with my thumb and forefinger and build a thread dam in front. This gives me a wing that is perpendicular to the shank. Later after the fly is completed and I've applied lacquer I rotate the jaws so I'm looking straight onto the eye and I tease the fibers out to the left and right to get the full 180 fan.

Sometimes on larger Comparaduns #8 - #10 once I get the wing upright I put a drop of Krazy glue at the base to really stiffen the wing so it won't move through repeated false casting.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
EntomanJanuary 16th, 2012, 3:14 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Hi Guys,

Below is a pasted page from my recipe book/diary written many years ago. Perhaps you'll find it interesting. Sorry for the miss-alignment of the pattern variations, it didn't line up well on the paste.

Sparkle Dun Emerger

Hook: TMC 100

Thread: 6/0 danville, to compliment

Tail: zylon

Body: beaver fur

Wing: coastal deer or yearling elk hair

Notes: This pattern derives from Harry Darbee’s Haystack and the much later so-called “Comparadun” of Al Caucci and Bob Nastassi, Authors of the popular “Hatches”. Same function as the Hackle-Stacker, but for the larger sizes. Post the hair up by wrapping thread in between hair pulled back in small bunches 3 times before damming up front to prevent the wing from slanting forward during use.

The original Comparadun design was an early favorite non-traditional imitative dry fly for “matching the hatch”. It supplanted the No Hackle because it was easier to tie properly and it retained its visibility while floating much better on the rougher waters I usually fished like the Truckee. It was wildly successful, providing tremendous sport in the Truckee and Yuba drainages. Not much later, I dropped it completely until it was revived many years later by the Z-lon tail, making it a very good emerger or stillborn pattern. Why did I drop the Comparadun? Because as I made my first forays to the gentler waters of the Intermountain region between Shasta and Lassen, it proved very disappointing. It fell even further out of favor after being exposed to Bob Quigley’s magnificent parachute patterns. Even sparse traditional Catskill style dries usually outfished it!

One episode in particular is firmly etched in my mind even though it occurred 25 years ago when my best friend waxed my tail on Hat Creek. It was a beautiful late Spring day that always preceded wonderful hatches of size 16 Sulfurs once the sun left the water. I was armed with perfectly matching Comparaduns that had dun elk wings and pale creamy yellowish bodies highlighted with orange. As predicted, the hatch came off on queue when the sun kissed us goodbye as it dipped over the ridge. Our favorite stretch to fish this hatch was the water around the Hwy. 299 Bridge because the Browns there really focused on the duns and there were no competing hatches to distract them. Our other favorite water below Hat 2 through the Carbon Bridge stretch was always a little more complicated because the hatches were more diverse (especially those pesky caddis) and the fish were also more into the nymphs. It’s bad enough to have to pick from a bunch of dun imitations so it made no sense to worry about Hare’s Ear’s, Beaver A.P.’s and a variety of caddis pupa/adults if we didn’t have to. Spoiled? Yes, but keep in mind this stretch of Hat Creek in those years was lightly fished and chock full of big browns. Believe it or not, many weekday evenings we had this whole stretch to ourselves! Our theory then (which still holds up to this day) was that the prime nursery for these bugs was upstream from the bridge and they liked to float quit awhile before becoming airborne. Based on screening samples and observance, it was determined this particular hatch covered substantially more distance as a dun than as a hatching nymph. If you do the math, this means more duns on the surface than nymphs in the drift at any one location. The spread gets progressively larger as the hatching duns overlap themselves the further below the best hatching habitat you go until at the bottom edge of the hatch (where we were), all there are is duns! This is a lesson to keep in mind if you fish during hatches where the species is known to hatch quickly and yet seems to be spending a lot of time drying off before taking flight. It’s no coincidence in these circumstances that the further you work down a riffle or run, the more fish you’ll find receptive to the dry fly. An example of this is the March Brown that hatches on the lower Yuba or the canyon waters of the Rogue.

But I digress... Back to the story, I gave a few of these “sure killers” to him and assured they would be the medicine. With a nod of approval he tied one on as I turned to work my way upstream a ways so as to have enough water to work back (we had learned a few seasons earlier that casting upstream was futile here). Being stubborn, I worked that fly through refusal after countless refusal because of a few small fish that bolstered my confidence. “This fly is too perfect. It has to be my presentation!”, I thought. What was really going on was my pride as a "skilled hatchmaster” was trumping my pride as a "skilled presentationist”. With time running out and barely enough light to make a fly change, I finally turned to the tried and true Lt. Hendrickson in desperation. This is a Catskill pattern we had successfully used for years before the introduction of the modern “super imitators”. There was a nice fish working about six feet out about forty feet below me that I had been working over with the comparadun off and on for the last twenty minutes. That means I followed my usual routine of making presentations until I sensed I was disturbing him and then switched to another fish for awhile until he settled back into rhythm. Anyway, with the Hendrickson knotted on, I worked out line and let it go. A quick mend to set up the drift and... "Shoot! Too far outside. O.K., let it swing in to the bank… Don’t line him! Slowly strip it back… Good, now let’s try it again. Geez, there’s not much light left. There, that’s where I want it, now just a little mend. O.K., looks good, now feed, feed... Perfect... Come on, you misbegotten son of a carp, take it, take it... Yeah!"

What a way to end an evening of frustration. A selective 16 inch Brown is always a great elixir to message the ego. As I trudged back downstream in the advancing darkness, I could make out my buddy's silhouette as he landed a fish at least as big as mine. Before I could open my mouth he exclaimed, “Wow, you sure tie a a helluva fly. That’s at least the tenth fish and it still floats! The fish have been big enough that I’ve had to retie it on a couple of times and it still looks good!” “It’s the elk hair wing!”, I proudly replied, failing to suppress my pleasure that the Comparadun made me look smart at least in his eyes. “Elk hair? Nah… I knew I was getting good drifts so after the first half dozen refusals or so, I went back to one of your Lt. Hendersons or whatever you call ‘em.… That other fly of yours doesn’t work worth a damn!”

Looking back, I now believe the reason we liked this stretch of water so much was the probable reason for the Comparadun’s failure. Those fish were into pristine duns floating lightly on the water well downstream from the throes of their emergence. The Comparadun by comparison (pardon the pun) floated flush and heavy, looking too much like an emerger for their liking. Over the years, the hair wing proved far too coarse for such delicate conditions and selective fish.


Size Thread Tail Body Wing

1. Sulfur 14 cream brown sulfur dun elk
2. Drunella 8 - 14 yellow olive/brown *olive/green dk. dun
3. Drunella #2 8 - 14 olive olive/brown **olive dk. dun
3. Callibaetis 14 gray dun gray deer
4. March Brown 12 brown brown brown deer
5. PMD 14 cream brown PMD dun
6. Olive 14 olive olive/brown olive dun


* Ribbed w/ yellow super floss (spandex)
** Ribbed w/ brown super floss

"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
PaulRobertsJanuary 16th, 2012, 11:27 am
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Ah! Yes! Fran Betters was a Harry Darbee protege. That makes sense.

Weird thing, how we all acquire ideas, and may forget where they came from -and sometimes that we didn't invent them! In some cases it's a purposeful omission -a character issue in my book. But just, or more, as often it's forgetting where something came from. We absorb so much in this game. Nowhere I suppose is this more common than in fly tying.
MartinlfJanuary 16th, 2012, 12:14 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2925
Interesting story, Kurt. Years ago I ran into a fellow on the West Branch of the Delaware who was doing very well on a size 18 blue wing olive Catskill tie. He disdained the comparaduns others were using, along with parachutes and other flies. I vaguely recall a discussion with another angler about the bugs being up on their legs, floating high that day, and how the hackle fly better imitated them.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
DoublespeyJanuary 16th, 2012, 1:11 pm
Posts: 61
There is also the controversy whether a taller wing, a prominent feature on a comparadun is a strike "trigger" Mike Lawson, in his study of a fishes window of view does not think it can be. A fish would not rise, in his opinion, because it sees the prominent wing first.
OldredbarnJanuary 16th, 2012, 1:42 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
There is also the controversy whether a taller wing, a prominent feature on a comparadun is a strike "trigger" Mike Lawson, in his study of a fishes window of view does not think it can be. A fish would not rise, in his opinion, because it sees the prominent wing first.


Doublespey,

Yes. This goes back to my man, Vinny Marinaro and his, "A Modern Dry Fly Code" which he published way back in 1950. It was the reason for his "Thorax Dun", or the main theory behind it anyway. There are all these neat geometrical drawings in his book showing the fishes perspective, via the window you mentioned, and how light bends etc as it enters the water.

The wing, in his theory, would be the first thing that entered the window and would become elongated, making it appear longer than it was, and somewhat detached fron the actual bug. This would start the process of the rise and the fish would take the natural.

If you every have seen his original Thorax Dun, nothing like Lawson's or the more modern version everyone ties today, it was a bear to tie correctly and not have it fall over on you on the water. This is probably why the modern version came about.

The modern version, for those who may not know what I'm talking about, has some sort of wing pretty much near the center of the fly and wound hackle on either side of the wing and simply snipped underneath. Vincent's version was a whole other animal and, to be fair, you really need to check it out.

Datus Proper, like myself, hold Mr. Marinaro in high esteem and Proper has a wonderful discription of this whole mess in his, "What the Trout Said". Worth more than a look! Even this old-lore driven romantic understands that 1950 was a few days ago...Before I was even born and I sometimes feel older than dirt! :)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
DoublespeyJanuary 16th, 2012, 7:34 pm
Posts: 61You've got me re-reading Lawson's SpringCreek book. I forget so much of the wealth of info in that fine book. Marinaro was Lawson's idol. He re-read Marinaro's books many times, and marveled at the insight Marinaro had at a time when few books on Spring Creek fishing were available. But Lawson differs with Marinaro on the wing being the trigger that comes into the fish's window first, because Lawson states that on flat water the mirror is the key to the rise. The fish sees the indentation in the surface from the legs, and body parts that extend below the surface..they see the bug approaching in reflection, and rise due to this rather than the wing in the mirror. Depth of the fish is a big factor on the size of the window, and what the fish sees. Thanks for gettin me ejucated!
GooseJanuary 17th, 2012, 11:08 am
Posts: 77Hey! Didn't anyone read Spence's post above?! :)


Very seldom, they're always too long! HA!
PaulRobertsJanuary 17th, 2012, 12:50 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
I ALWAYS read Spence's posts. THen I check the word count and see if I can beat him! Hah!

You've got me re-reading Lawson's SpringCreek book. I forget so much of the wealth of info in that fine book. Marinaro was Lawson's idol. He re-read Marinaro's books many times, and marveled at the insight Marinaro had at a time when few books on Spring Creek fishing were available. But Lawson differs with Marinaro on the wing being the trigger that comes into the fish's window first, because Lawson states that on flat water the mirror is the key to the rise. The fish sees the indentation in the surface from the legs, and body parts that extend below the surface..they see the bug approaching in reflection, and rise due to this rather than the wing in the mirror. Depth of the fish is a big factor on the size of the window, and what the fish sees. Thanks for gettin me ejucated!

Well… I think… Both could be at play at times. There is likely no one trigger. Trout likely will use as much info as they can get, unless the particular fish is completely unselective at that time. Then.. they might grab at any dimple on the surface, whether first seen in the mirror or in the window. Cautious fish seem to wait until the fly is in window to make a decision though. And sometimes a very cautious fish will display the full Marinaro "complex rise" where the fish ends up inspecting the fly from several angles, for painful duration.

I've felt that the upright wing can indeed be a trigger, and/or abdomen, and/or legs, not to mention size and hue. Each can play a role, and if the fish is apt to scrutinize, this is done in the window. Water depth matters bc it affects the size of the window.

When fish are rising to dense tiny stuff they often sit right under the surface and gobble. A chunk of the difficulty lies in the narrow window the angler has to hit for the fish to even see the fly, sometimes amidst a lot of naturals. When emergences are less dense, or flies are bigger or more active, trout may hold deeper to purposely expand the window to view more water. What’s likely seen in the mirror might get them to start a rise, but what’s seen in the window should be where the final decision is made.

Window size is something I certainly factor in to my dry fly fishing, because I believe trout use window size to their benefit. When the trout are using a large window, casts may not have to be quite as accurate, and sometimes I’ve been able to catch fish in a difficult lie by purposely (or at least first) throwing outside their difficult “lane”, and letting the fish come to the fly.

I have entries in my journals with sketches showing how fish sat during different periods within the relatively predictable Hendrickson emergences. Early in the daily emergence they’d hang deeper and greedily smack duns that paraded one-by-one out of the riffles. At a certain point the larger fish in the pool would take up deeper stations below the main current tongues and I could target them confidently. As the emergence got denser, rise rhythms would increase as fish crowded closer to the surface. More naturals and smaller windows required more of me, despite the apparent ruckus. (I always wondered if this wasn’t at least some of the issue with dorothea emergences I fished on the same waters, which could be a real frustration due to their density, creating a melee just below the head riffs.) E. subvaria spinner falls tended to be dense and, the fly being not so visible as a dun, the head riffs tended to give up small trout, with the better fish falling back to eddies and tailouts where the spent spinners were easier to see, and window size (fish depth) depended on bug density and current speed.

Back to triggers:
Again, I've felt that the upright wing can indeed be a trigger, and/or abdomen, and/or the whorl of legs, not to mention size and hue. I believe each can play a role.

So… I invented a mayfly dun pattern, devised a while back for difficult browns on the Delaware (and other flat waters) –for those “scrutinizers”. And it worked really well. It’s a bear to tie –takes some getting used to– but is worth it if you REALLY want that one scrutinizer along that bank sipping #18 to #14 mayfly duns –and apt to exhibit a complex rise. I called it the UltDun and it has an upright wing and a whorl of believable legs. It is in the March 2002 Fly Fisherman. I’ll post images when I can clear some time.
OldredbarnJanuary 17th, 2012, 1:54 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Paul,

When I read your informative posts, like the one above, I'm blissfully unaware of the word count mister! :)

Goose...You are so modern :) and probably would prefer "tweets"...Short stories instead of novels, and poetry instead of prose. In the big picture I guess that life is truely short and folks seem to rush because of this...I prefer, psychologically, to attempt to slow it all down a bit with rambling nostalgia and lore...Both choices are illusions I guess...You reducing all meaning down to "quanta", and me trying to imbue every "quanta" with more meaning than it probably deserves...:)

Then again...It could just be your attention span! :) Not to mention that Spence can be a bore...You say toe-ma-toe, and I say toe-may-toe...Let's find a stream and go fish...

Spence

A weird aside...It is January 17th and it is 51 degrees out and raining like hell here?
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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