Keystoner	February 14th, 2011, 5:28 pm
Eugene, OR - formerly Eastern PA Posts: 145	Just wondering what knot is prefered for the daisy chain type rig. A guy showed me a setup on the water the other day where he had an incredibly small midge dry, trailed by an incredibly small zebra midge. Apparently, the dry doubles as a fly and an indicator. Didn't think to ask what knot he used to tie the trailing fly to the forward flies shank. Since searched all my knot books to no avail. Is this just an improved clinch situation? Or is something else used??
	"Out into the cool of the evening, strolls the Pretender. He knows that all his hopes and dreams, begin and end there." -JB

Troutnut	February 14th, 2011, 5:54 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	I just use an improved clinch because that's what I use for most things. Never gave it much extra thought, and it seems to work fine. I do use a different system if I'm fishing 2+ nymphs or wets, though. I tie on some extra tippet using a blood knot, and tie one of the flies to one of the tag ends of the blood knot. (Or two blood knots, for two extra flies.)
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist

Shawnny3	February 14th, 2011, 6:46 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Nice idea, Jason. Never heard of that technique before. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

Jmd123	February 14th, 2011, 8:15 pm
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	What knot or whatnot? JMD
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...

Troutnut	February 14th, 2011, 8:53 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Nice idea, Jason. Never heard of that technique before. I made it up. :) I'm sure I'm not the first one or even the hundredth to think of it, though. It's nice because the "dropper" sticks out perpendicular to the main line, and if it's short (like 1 inch, but it depends on line thickness) the fly will stick out too and minimize tangles. A useful trick to know for this is that you can make the tag end pretty short by tying the fly onto the tip of your existing line before adding the next segment with the blood knot. Tie the whole blood knot with the fly attached to the tag end. It's a bit faster this way, I think.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist

Flatstick96	February 15th, 2011, 9:16 am
Posts: 127	In the same vein as Jason's comment, you can also use the tag end of your blood knot for adding split shot. Putting it there mean's that it's not abrading your tippet, and if you do get it wedged between rocks, sometimes it'll come off without you losing everything else along with it...

Flatstick96	February 15th, 2011, 9:19 am
Posts: 127	As to the original question, I don't attach the dropper to the bend of the lead fly's hook, I attach it to the eye of the lead fly, using an improved clinch knot - not sure why, this is just the way I've always done it. Shawnny, on the other hand, never does it this way - he ALWAYS ties the trailing fly off of the bend of the lead fly. We both catch fish.

Falsifly	February 15th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	It's nice because the "dropper" sticks out perpendicular to the main line, and if it's short (like 1 inch, but it depends on line thickness) the fly will stick out too and minimize tangles. I see a possible drawback to the “short like 1 inch” tag, even several inches would cause the same problem. If the whole point is to fish a tandem rig and the fly on the short tag is lost, for whatever reason, there is not enough tag left to retie. That would result in retying the whole rig or clipping the tag leaving the knot and starting over at the point fly, which could result in a series of whatnots.
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

Keystoner	February 15th, 2011, 4:26 pm
Eugene, OR - formerly Eastern PA Posts: 145	Oh wow, question answered by the Troutnut himself! Thanks Jason. I kinda figured on the improved clinch, but who knows, figured I might as well throw it out. Jmd123- Thank you for calling out the obvious pun. Can't wait to get out there and try this out!! Thanks guys!
	"Out into the cool of the evening, strolls the Pretender. He knows that all his hopes and dreams, begin and end there." -JB

Jmd123	February 15th, 2011, 9:03 pm
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	Keystoner - I'm just a poet and I don't know it... ;oD JMD
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...

Oldredbarn	February 16th, 2011, 12:48 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	I made it up. :) I'm sure I'm not the first one or even the hundredth to think of it, though. It's nice because the "dropper" sticks out perpendicular to the main line, and if it's short (like 1 inch, but it depends on line thickness) the fly will stick out too and minimize tangles. Jason, I'm pretty old, but I believe this tandem rig of yours pre-dates even me. As Softhackle will no doubt concur, it's an old wet fly system. Since he just passed away I will mention Syl Nemes book, "Two Centuries of Softhackle Flies"...He pushes this system of "yours" and disparages the more common system of dangling a nymph off the bend of the hook...He claimed the latter was a glorified snagging rig... I think my attraction to dry fly fishing has something to do with my becoming easily bored...well lets just say distracted. Ice fishing, which I love to do, can lend itself, for me, to distraction fairly easily so I have used a version of your system while ice fishing. I have the tiny little ice fishing jig at the end of the line with maybe a wax worm impaled on it and a little ways up run the tippet off a knot like you describe. Off of this I tie on "ice fishing flies" that are tied on fairly small dry fly hooks. These could just be a couple wraps of bright red micro chenelle and a wrap or two of a black hackle...Its just something to interest the fish and a very easily bored angler who would rather be wading a stream tossing dry flies but everythings frozen over...Damn it!. Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Martinlf	February 16th, 2011, 2:30 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	If you're worried about running out of tippet on droppers you can tie them with tippet rings, tiny rings available from JS Stockard and other outfitters. http://www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/item/LL-295020-0000/search/Niche-Products-Mini-Tippet-Rings.html I typically use trilene knots on these as the knot is a bit stronger than a clinch, but tighten it by pulling the tag and main line, and carefully squinching the knot to the ring with your fingernail. If the dropper gets too short, just cut it off and tie in another. At each dropper you have three knots, one for the leader, one for the tippet, and one for the dropper. I've had luck with Flatstick's method also. Loren Williams, a NY guide who seems to really know his stuff, has about convinced me not to tie to the bend. I know it works, but take a look at this: http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/droppers.html Loren argues against tying to the bend when using the dry as an indicator, but his essay points to using an Orvis tippet knot tag for all droppers. I don't do this, as I don't particularly like that knot, but I may try it in the future. By the way, Loren's site is a superb one, full of tips and tying recipes. I hear he's a great guide, and I hope to get out with him at some point. http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/tips.html
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

Shawnny3	February 22nd, 2011, 5:18 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	I haven't yet had a chance to read Loren's information. I don't know that I've met Loren, but everything I've ever heard about him is positive. He seems like a very knowledgeable and good guy. I hadn't known Duane to attach his split-shot to a tag on his knots - very cool idea. Yesterday I got out for a little winter fishing and experimented with some new ideas inspired by what people have been posting here. I rigged my lead fly, a sowbug, in the way Duane described, with both the leading and trailing sections of leader tied to its eye. The trailing fly was a shrimp. The sowbug was weighted and the shrimp was not, and I wanted to get the shrimp down a little more. So I attached about 3 inches of tippet off the bend of the shrimp, then tied a lump of 3 overhand knots at its tip. I attached the split-shot to the short trailing section of tippet, using the knot at the end to keep it from slipping off. This method had the advantages already listed, but I also think that placing the weight behind the flies helped them get down more quickly and to a more predictable depth than they would have with the weight tied in ahead of them (my usual custom). I think the presentation was better in keeping the flies oriented as I want them as they drift downstream, with a strong profile even when the cast is more upstream than sidestream. I think Duane's method of rigging trailing and leading line through the eye of the lead fly also helps - the fly drifts perpendicular to the line and maintains a strong profile in the current rather than lining up with it and torpedoing straight through the water. I haven't noticed this, but I suppose it may even toss and turn as it attempts to orient to the current - even better. Whatever the case, the fish were responsive, especially to the lead fly (I know it was a different fly - this was certainly no scientific study!). I was worried with this rig about fouling, but it wasn't an issue during normal casting. The problem I found was different - if I got the rig just barely caught in an overhanging limb, the trailing shot would wrap around the limb and I'd have no hope of retrieval without picking it out by hand. I will certainly experiment with these methods further - these were just my immediate observations. I'm now considering leaving long the tag end of the clinch knot I use to attach a fly, then attaching shot to that tag. Anyone ever try that? -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

Gutcutter	February 22nd, 2011, 5:59 am
Pennsylvania Posts: 470	Shawn - I have done that when sight fishing to large trout in somewhat deeper and very clear water with an upstream reach cast. I have had success (and alot of failures!) with that rig. I really have to slow down my delivery and open my loop as the shot will twist the leader and catch on the segment going to the fly. maybe i leave the tag end too long? my best success has been with a shot off of a blood knot further up the leader (away from the fly). It is more difficult to control the depth than on the tippett blood knot, but the line fouling has been less and the distance from the fly may be of some benefit. tony
	All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness

Shawnny3	February 22nd, 2011, 5:01 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Interesting, Tony. Yes, maybe it is easier to keep the shot from fouling with a short distance between fly and shot, but you may also be right that having the shot so close to the fly may deter strikes. Certainly the fly with the shot close by was less productive for me - but it was also a different fly. More research would be needed to begin to answer that one. It also may help that the water was not very high and I was using at most two #8-shot at a time. I tend to cast a pretty open loop anyway, being that I nymph almost exclusively, so it wasn't much an issue for me. But I could see it being a bigger problem with more weight. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

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