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Aaron7_8September 18th, 2010, 11:12 am
Helena Montana

Posts: 115
I just watched an episode of Fly Rod Chronicles. They were fishing Spruce Creek, is it also a feeder supplemented trout habitat. I bring this up because I have never seen multiple 2+ lb brown trout occupying the same run in two feet of water in a stream that is less than forty feet wide.
Is it also a limestoner? Or, am I just a little too jaded on fishing shows?
CaseyPSeptember 18th, 2010, 12:22 pm
Arlington, VA/ Mercersburg, PA

Posts: 653
go here:

http://www.troutnut.com/topic/2386/2

it's the middle of a discussion of what private parties have done and tried to do to the Little Juniata. Spruce Creek is a major tributary of the Little J, with some amazing private fishing on it. some of the folks who operate the newer, more expensive clubs, have stocked the rainbows and then fed them and fed them and fed them. hence huge fish in a little stream.
"You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra
AdirmanSeptember 18th, 2010, 1:15 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
Sometimes I feel like that kind of fishing, you know, private clubs w/ their own stockers that are fed, sheltered, protected from the public is like "artificial" fishing in a way, don't you think? What I mean is, they create a trout utopia that is, in today's world, totally unrealistic. It's almost as bad as a guy w/ his own private lake/pond stocking it w/ tons of brookies then bragging to his friends how many trout he caught over the weekend. It is certainly an apples to oranges comparison IMHO, as compared to say, fishing the no-kill section of the Beaverkill and having a good catch. That place is pounded and the trout get pretty damn smart!!
GONZOSeptember 18th, 2010, 4:11 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Sometimes I feel like that kind of fishing, you know, private clubs w/ their own stockers that are fed, sheltered, protected from the public is like "artificial" fishing in a way, don't you think?


I do. I suppose you can earn fly-fishing enjoyment the "old-fashioned" way or you can buy it. Of course, I'm somewhat prejudiced because I never really had the option to do the latter. :)

I have a good fly-fishing friend whose finances were not as perennially compromised as my own. He decided to join an old, established club that had temporarily been a new "Spring Ridge" start-up. He joined the year after they kicked DB and his cronies out. It was convenient, and he was recovering from a broken back that severely limited his ability to do the more strenuous fishing that he used to do with me.

At first, the novelty of catching large numbers of 16-24" trout at every visit was entertaining. However, the club didn't continue to stock the huge "pellet pigs," so the numbers of big fish gradually declined. The remaining fish became increasingly more difficult to catch. His hard-won public-water skills still allowed him to have far more success than most club members, but at one point he compared the fishing to the special reg. section of the Little Lehigh with fewer people and somewhat larger fish. Finally, his back healed, and the novelty had thoroughly worn off. He quit the club.

Now, every time we fish together he remarks that the public-water fishing is much more interesting, rewarding, and enjoyable than his club experience. I could have told him that, but I think he had to learn it for himself.
Shawnny3September 18th, 2010, 4:50 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
Perhaps, as in many other areas of their lives, the people who are members of such clubs attempt to use their money to compensate for what they lack, whether it is the necessary talents or skills to be really good flyfishermen or simply the time needed to develop the necessary talents and skills. Sadly, for those who attempt to achieve instant gratification, rarely is anything instantaneously achieved or procured gratifying.

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
MT319September 18th, 2010, 9:03 pm
NY

Posts: 24
I think you generalize private club water fishing with fat stocked pellet fed trout, when in reality thats just an overgeneralization and not actually reflective of an appreciable number of club waters. A guy who I run into regularly on this wild trout stream 10 minutes from me and talk to all the time invited me up to fish his private club waters upstate...it's a mile and a half tributary of the Neversink..The headwaters are public for starters, a different club owns a mile and a half stretch below that, and then his club owns the last mile and a half before it empties into the neversink where again it returns back to being public water. It's entirely wild browns and native brookies, absolutely no stocked fish whatsoever...in the summer some of the wild browns from the Neversink also run up into the tributary and they in particular are definitely pretty difficult to catch, not to mention one sloppy cast or spooked brookie in that setting and you spook an entire pool and don't have a shot at anything which makes it also kinda difficult in that regard. What's cool about it too is you also have two entirely different strains of wild browns within the same stream..you have a tributary strain of wild browns that are light brown in color with sparse but very large in diameter bright orange dots along their sides which have been naturally reproducing there since the early 1900's and then you also have the Neversink strain of wild browns that are yellowish/gold and densely spotted with smaller diameter black and bright red dots across their sides so anyway it's cool fishing there cause there are two distinctly different strains of wild browns within the same tributary each with their own inherent beauty plus native brookies that have been there since native american days. Also since both the wild browns and brookies spawn within the same stream there have been a couple wild tiger trout that have occasionally popped up in there from time to time. The biggest wild brown ever caught in there he said was 18 inches and the biggest wild brookie 17 and I don't know any of the other members there, nor do I have any interest in doing so, but the guy I go with has been fly fishing for 45 years fresh, salt, pretty much every place imaginable on the continent so he's actually really skilled and is anything but pretentious (although i'm sure the vast majority of private club members are a bunch of pretentious tools, but it's the same shit with the TU faggots I occassionaly come across around me or the people who will only fish the WB Deleware and/or Beaverkill to exclusion of anywhere else)...who cares these people are a joke to begin with anyway and should be seen as nothing more than the mild temporary source of amusement that they are, but yea anyway though point is the private club water i've fished is basically the polar opposite of what's being described on here and i'm sure there are a sizeable number of private club waters that are quite similar to the river I went to which again was anything but the globs of fat oversized pellet fed stockies you guys describe it as.
AdirmanSeptember 19th, 2010, 5:32 am
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
MT;

I'm sure we did overgeneralize; you're right, not all clubs will fit the descriptions provided on this thread. Probably many of them do not. Sounds like you had occasion to fish a really good one where your experience was enriching and rewarding,so congrats! I, on the other hand, have not, so forgive me if I rant a bit and "knock" private club fishing a little bit!! I'ts 'cause I'm envious!!
GONZOSeptember 19th, 2010, 9:36 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Hold on, MT. I was describing a particular experience at a particular club in response to A-man's fairly specific description of a certain kind of club:

Sometimes I feel like that kind of fishing, you know, private clubs w/ their own stockers that are fed, sheltered, protected from the public is like "artificial" fishing in a way, don't you think?


The club you describe sounds quite interesting, but that was not the type of club under discussion. Notice that Shawn said "such clubs" not all clubs. I apologize if what I said was taken as some sort of blanket indictment of all clubs and all club fishermen. To be clear, I was only indicating my preference for fishing that is less artificial, less predictable, and less expensive. I don't know what part of this discussion might have stirred your ire about TU or people who fish the West Branch or the Beaverkill, but for what it's worth, we also didn't call anyone "pretentious tools" or "f----ts." To me, this discussion seemed fairly tame and temperate up until that point.
GutcutterSeptember 19th, 2010, 11:14 am
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
Spruce creek - is a horrible example of private water. I have fished on harpster's water several times as guests of people who were having an outing there. There are times of the year when it is "like" real fishing but the size of the fish is really out of the norm. Harpster, rod & gun club, spring ridge and others have made it so. The Harvey water is public and way more fun and challenging to me.
Other private water is similar, but some is not.
If you look at the private spring creeks in paradise valley, it is basically a club that you have to pay for on a daily basis.
The fish are wild and tough. You will find some folks who need a guide and I'm sure that they can be pretty frustrated ( both the client and guide) at the end of the day. And good fishermen are rewarded with wild, large fish under difficult conditions.
The west branch is not private and if you can catch large fish there, you are a good (or lucky) fisherman. I don't get that comparison. Even if you fish out of "the club", you still have to earn the big fish.
My $.02 worth
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
RleePSeptember 20th, 2010, 3:40 pm
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 396
My main problem with private water (whether stuffed with pelletized hogs or left completely natural with pay access) is that it is an additional narrowing factor in the stakeholder base of a sport that is demographically already under increasing assault. Fewer kids are learning to fish. This means that generally, fewer adults will be fishing in the future.

If quality fishing becomes largely commoditized in this country, it'll be as dead as Mrs. Lynch's tomcat who was flattened by a milk truck in 1963 while chasing a chipmunk across US 19 about 15 miles south of Erie.

I saw it happen.

That's the real problem here, IMO..
MT319September 20th, 2010, 5:04 pm
NY

Posts: 24
Alright well i'm 25 and fit directly into the demographic you speak of and my primary fly fishing grievance is frankly it's just too fucking expensive for people still in HS/college/starting out just after graduation to afford without any type of decent career (not to mention all the accrued debt you're already in when you do finally graduate and get that decent career or in some cases they can't even get a job at all) with everything from rods, to reels, to fly line, to leaders, to tippet, to flies, to waders, to boots, to licenses, and everything else in between...it has absolutely nothing to do with too much water being private as there is thousands of miles of great public trout water in New England for everything from little wild brookie streams to catching sea-run Browns and again very little of it is actually private so I completely understand what you're saying and it's nice you have sentiment for wanting younger people to fly fish, but I don't think that's an issue in terms of people in my generation (ie; by younger generation I assume you mean the 16-30 demographic) in them not taking up fly fishing, it's more the financial factor than anything else, plus the isolating aspect of the hobby is also not something most people my age would find particularly appealing..again on top of the ridiculous costs of pursuing the hobby.
TaxonSeptember 20th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1306
In all due respect, that's a load of horse manure. I started out with a $12.50 fly rod, a throw-away reel and line, some old leader, three old flies with rusty hooks, a discarded fingernail clipper, and a pair of worn out tennis shoes. Further, I was 36 at the time.

Did I eventually get better equipment? Sure. Did I have just as much fun with my crappy equipment? You bet I did. What's my point? It doesn't require hardly anything to take up fly fishing on the cheap if one really has the desire.
Best regards,
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
GutcutterSeptember 20th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
i have to agree with roger here.
in another post, jonathon mentioned a fifty dollar rod. then a cheap real and decent line will set you back another hundred or so.
cheap bootfoot waders and a no-frills vest then some flies (tie your own or becom friends with an avid tyer or scrounge the internet fly shops for cheap flies... buy some mono spools and tie leaders according to known/standard formulas. that will make you a better fisherman.
stay away from the temptation of simms, fishpond, cloudvail, sage, winston, orvis unless they are lastyears models and the price is reduced.
but most importantly - most of the people in your age group cry poor but refuse to- get rid of the i-phone and expensive service plan. a cheap t.v. instead of a giant flatscreen. a coffee pot at home instead of starbucks each morning. a fridge and pantry with groceries in it to make lunch and bring it to work/school and again for dinner instead of takeout or restaraunts.
you (and others) can do it if you want to and choose what is important in your life.
i built my first flyrod while i was still in highschool (fenglass) and put a pfluger medalist reel and cortland line on it. i bought spools of mason and ande, used a micrometer and tied harvey slack leaders (without a tool). i can still add tippett with a blood knot as fast as most guides because i've tied that knot with different diameter line 10,000 times.the pfluger is still in production but made overseas now for a cheap price. lamson makes an awesome reel (stamped and not machined) for around a hundred bucks - what most of your generation pays each month for cable service.
if you want to do it, you can. but what in your life is more important?
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
MT319September 20th, 2010, 7:58 pm
NY

Posts: 24
Yea I know man...that's a load of "horse maneur" just like you're not out of touch with present day society...we're not talking about "36 year olds" were talking about kids in their teens and 20's...simply put why the hell would anbody drop a couple hundred on fly fishing stuff and go isolate themselves in the woods somewhere when they can go spend their limited resources on both neccesities and associating with friends, girls etc.. unless they were some fuckin recluse or had an anxiety disorder and accordingly could not function within the rest of society. Fly fishing by no coincidence is an activity for middle aged and older men as this aligns much more with your lifestyle/structure, individual need of an outlet/means of escapism from everyday grind/wife/kid responsibilities, and also at that time have established your own stable residence, transportation, financial responsibilities/neccessities, and at least relatively stable means of employment to support such a venture...obviously tho being 25 years old and spending the last 6 years in college as a grad/undergrad student, having 3 brothers between the ages of 20-24, having a plenty friends particularly considering I was a ridiculous hockey player/athlete in general growing up etc.. I obviously have absolutely no idea what the interests and values of people within my own age demographic revolve around and you do...whatever man...like I said the financial and isolating aspects of the hobby do not make it appealing to people within the 16-30 demographic which is why they opt spend their time and resources elsewhere
TaxonSeptember 20th, 2010, 8:09 pm
Site Editor
Plano, TX

Posts: 1306
I get that you have no interest in fly fishing. But, what I fail to understand is, why exactly are you motivated to spend time on this forum?
Best regards,
Roger Rohrbeck
www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
GONZOSeptember 20th, 2010, 9:11 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
I'm confused as well, Roger, but this is what I'm getting:

MT was unhappy with comments about private fishing clubs and wanted to defend an acquaintance who is a club fisherman, but he considers other club fisherman to be pretentious tools.

He thinks TU members are gay and has a problem with people who like to fish the West Branch and the Beaverkill.

He thinks fly fishing is too effing expensive, but says that Lee's worries about the commoditization of fly fishing have nothing to do with it.

Lastly, he thinks that old guys don't understand how fly fishing cuts into his generation's social-networking time.

Oh, and he wants you to know that he was a "ridiculous" hockey player/athlete.

Having grown up way back in the '60s, I obviously don't know anything about generational conflicts or uncertainty about the future. However, I do wish he wouldn't swear all the time. You'll have to excuse me now...the nurse is here with my medication.
AfishinadoSeptember 21st, 2010, 4:32 am
SE PA

Posts: 73
Sheesh MT319, you're way off base with both our language and logic. Hiking, mountain biking, kayaking, rafting, and yes, fly-fishing are all outdoor sports enjoyed by 20 something year olds. These folks not "some xxxxx recluses" for enjoying the outdoors.

Sounds like you need a little time in the outdoors yourself to unwind, relax, and get you head together. Put away your I-Phone, I-Pod, I-Pad, and X-Box for a weekend and enjoy!
GutcutterSeptember 21st, 2010, 5:42 am
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
obviously my little "pep talk" has fallen upon deaf ears...
hey jesse and motrout -
are you going to weigh in here and defend your generation?
seems like you have made a priority list and flyfishing is at or near the top.
this guy doesn't seem to get the fact that if you want to be a flyfishing bum, even if you aren't middle aged or old, then you can. it doesn't have to consume your life. you can still do all the crap that he describes in his social life (or lack there of)
oh, yeah...
and i was a hellava football player, hockey player, wrestler, boxer and rugby player, too.
i also had plenty of girlfriends, buddies, team mates, and fishing partners to ride in my mom's 1975 ford ltd station wagon to and from the central pa spring creeks while we were in highschool and college. some of them are still fishing buddies.
you just don't get it
GO AWAY
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
MotroutSeptember 21st, 2010, 6:14 am
Posts: 319
"why the hell would anbody drop a couple hundred on fly fishing stuff and go isolate themselves in the woods somewhere"
"like I said the financial and isolating aspects of the hobby do not make it appealing to people within the 16-30 demographic which is why they opt spend their time and resources elsewhere"
MT, I frankly have no idea what you're talking about. I am well within the "16-30 demographic", and there isn't anything in there world more appealing to me than spending a few days alone on a trout stream with a fly rod. As for the financial aspects of it-that's not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be. I started out with a $25 fly rod from walmart (it wasn't great, but it really did work okay) a few woolly buggers, (again, the .99 cent walmart verson), a leader and a spool of tippet. It cost me about 45 dollars to get set up originally, which isn't much at all, and it was the most worthwhile decision I have made in my life. I have since managed to carve out a little money for a better graphite rod and even a low-end split cane set up, but I don't actually need any of that. So yes, fly fishing can be appealing to younger people. It's just that a lot of people in my generation are woefully disconnected with nature, which is a very sad thing and a different topic in itself.
"I don't know what fly fishing teaches us, but I think it's something we need to know."-John Gierach
http://fishingintheozarks.blogspot.com/
OldredbarnSeptember 21st, 2010, 6:41 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2599
It's just that a lot of people in my generation are woefully disconnected with nature, which is a very sad thing and a different topic in itself.


Bingo!!!

Mo T, Unfortunately our younger folks aren't alone in this disconnect with the natural world. But I think you hit the nail on the head here.

Thanks for your input!

Spence

You'll have to excuse me now...the nurse is here with my medication.
...Mr. G...Can I get a "hit" off that??? :)
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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