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This discussion is about the Little Juniata River

The Discussion

RleePSeptember 2nd, 2010, 1:19 pm
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland

Posts: 398
Exactly right, guys...

Back when I was living in Erie County (PA) and had my TU hat pretty firmly welded to my head (chapter President, state publications editor, etc. etc.) I went a few public rounds with PLA and the main driving force behind PLA, Mr. Brace. He was sort of loud and abrasive at times, to be kind. He was a major landowner/potato farmer in the area who was wired into the local gentry, (a potato chip manufacturing family who are really pretty nice folks). He (I don't think..) really ever understood that being a Duke in rural Erie County did not automatically transfer to a like title in the big bad ol' bigger world

These were painful confrontations because all of my siblings had cut cabbage for the guy (a common summer job for high school kids in my area)and his daughter (also on the PLA board under her married name) and my youngest sister were best friends in school.

He had a few points in his favor in the beginning of the thing. The wetlands regs were vague and the identity of the controlling agency on a given statute was often difficult to discern. But he lost a lot of folks who initially supported him, IMO, due to his personality/style.

Eventually, the national property rights people got hold of him and they merged flags. He took the original beef to the Federal Appellate level twice and twice was handed his hat. Then the USSC refused to hear it and it was over.

Over except for a lot of hurt feelings and broken bonds of trust and friendship between a lot of folks in a small, small town who had known each other all their lives. And of course for the shot in the arm the entire affair gave a national movement that is as potentially deadly to our sport as any leaky pipe running from a factory to flowing water.

So, its worth remembering that Don Beaver is a part of this..

Off to the UP in the ayem~~! It's supposed to be 38 degrees in Iron River Sunday night. Brookies, brookies brookies~~!

OldredbarnSeptember 2nd, 2010, 1:44 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
Off to the UP in the ayem~~! It's supposed to be 38 degrees in Iron River Sunday night. Brookies, brookies brookies~~!


Lee,

Let's hope the little denizens of my fair state can get your mind off some of this you-know-what for a bit!

Tight lines!

I don't know how long you may be up there or how you are getting there, but my nephew and I will be in Grayling on the 11th for the annual Au Sable river clean up post the other selfish folk in our lives...polluting canoeist/kayakers/tubers...I'm trying to induct another poor little soul in to our obsession :)...He will be helping me with a nice little beat in the famous George Mason Tract on the South Branch...Unfortunately one of the heaviest canoed stretches on the river...It's also our first cleanup post the passing of Rusty Gates last December...Just trying to teach him something about doing his part and caring for the resource!

If you are passing by just stop in...There's beer & brats around noonish...

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
SlateDrake9September 2nd, 2010, 5:09 pm
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
Oh my. I just checked out that landowners' website.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
GONZOSeptember 2nd, 2010, 7:03 pm
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
Yeah, B.J., isn't it great to know that they are fighting to protect us from the evils of conservation easements, navigable waterways rulings, Clean Water Act legislation, Scenic Rivers designations, and those nasty Rails-to-Trails projects?

If you haven't heard about DB's infamous "Trojan Horse" strategy, you can get a taste of his duplicitous business practices by reading the "Outfitter Strategy Outlined" section of the club newsletter:
http://troutunderground.com/pdf%20files/springridgenewsletter.pdf
TunaSeptember 3rd, 2010, 7:10 am
Altoona, PA

Posts: 16
Gutcutter: I was actually on my(and anyone else's for that matter) 100% navigable stretch of the Little J, I will never say it belongs to the club, on Saturday and had a run in with one of the guides there. I usually walk a ways down in then fish my way back upstream. As I was doing so, just walking that is, I heard someone yell at me from the far bank. He then motioned at me to come over to him, so wanting to get fishing I casually walked over to see what he had to say, after all I didn't know he was a guide, yet. Once I got to him, he asked, "Did you know that this is club water and right now there are several members of the club fishing downstream?" I said, "Yes sir, I do know this is club water to you, but to me it belongs to the state of PA, and do not intend on going near your clients, I'm just going to walk to the end of this riffle/run and then fish my way upstream." I was not rude and remained calm, cool, and collected. He then said, "I also noticed as you were walking that you were moving from rock to rock and were not completely in the water the whole time. If your not in the water I can call the State Police and have you arrested for tresspassing. Since there are guys downstream of you I would appreciate that you don't fish here either, at all." That set me off, big time. I was way below the high water mark, the stream is low and some rocks are exposed making it easier to walk downstream, so I took advantage. I calmly looked at the guy ans said, "Sorry about your luck buddy, I'm fishing whether you want me to or not. If you like, I will call the State Police for you." He then proceeded to yell profanities and other "nice" words at me, all while threatening to "beat my *##". I walked away, after saying, "Have a nice day, sir," downstream to my original destination where no other people could be seen fishing, anywhere.
These guys are out of their minds. They think they own the stream, and can therefore bully everyone away. I have use of a 3 man Creek Company pontoon, and from now on will probably only fish that area from the pontoon. Plus, they can keep their stupid pelletheads. I just wish more people would get involved and help the efforts to stop these people.
Reel men play with their flies.
OldredbarnSeptember 3rd, 2010, 9:28 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
He then proceeded to yell profanities and other "nice" words at me, all while threatening to "beat my *##". I walked away, after saying, "Have a nice day, sir," downstream to my original destination where no other people could be seen fishing, anywhere.
These guys are out of their minds. They think they own the stream, and can therefore bully everyone away. I have use of a 3 man Creek Company pontoon, and from now on will probably only fish that area from the pontoon. Plus, they can keep their stupid pelletheads. I just wish more people would get involved and help the efforts to stop these people.


Matt,

It's too bad you had to go through this, but you must not let them chase you away or make you fish in some other manner. They win if you do. You should of called the police, though we both know they are busy enough, for his harrassing you...We had a case here in Michigan a few years back where a couple folks out in canoes got in to it with each other and there was swearing etc and a family happened by in another canoe with children aboard and took the guy to court and he was fined.

I read Gonzo's link and we have had these sort of squabbles all over this country...One of the more famous was Ted Turner trying to turn the Ruby out west in to his own private stream and there were rumors that he was going to stock it with non-natives.

We have a stretch on the North Branch that is locally called the "Club Waters" because large tracks there belong to private hunting/fishing clubs that go way back...Unless you were familiar with the woods and not oppossed to trespass the only way to fish there really was to float down in a river boat or hike a good distance upstream.

Years back, especially on the weekends, these places would hire guys to "patrol" their stretches and hassle an angler if he ever tried to exit the stream. One of these places was/is called Nash Camp and I have a nice up close photo of their sign from the stream...All the "old-timers" when they see the picture ask if I got it floating by and I always give them my best little rascals grin and say no, I was standing in the stream ;)...

There's another place where a family owns both sides of the river and for years guys would sneek back to a meadow on the opposite side of their cottage with their cars. There is an island here with small wooden bridges so they can walk across...This spring I was fishing there and the woman that owns the place walked over the bridges and island and peeked out in to the meadow expecting to see my vehicle there...I was fishing up the channel along the island and near the bridge as she walked back across...I smiled at her because I knew what she was up to and she knew I knew...;) She was having a hard time figuring out how I made it in front of her place.

Anyway! I'm not supporting trespassing here I just got a little off track...There are always going to be hassles between folks who equate owning the property with somehow their having dominion over the stream...It somehow becomes theirs...This isn't England and we can see easily through this "club" owners Orwellian "double-speak"...He wants to be the only one to make any money there while he's exploiting something that really belongs to the citizens of PA.

The Anglers of the Au Sable was formed in 1987 basically because we couldn't get some other fishing groups to support catch-and-release on a section of the mainstream. This was a real hot-button issue at the time and it got a little out of control in some quarters. There was a restaurant owner in town who actually threatened to poison the stream if no-kill went through! He has long since been out-of-business.

In a favorite stretch that I have fished for a long time there was an old guy who had a cabin there that he claimed to have owned since the 30's. He basically thought that any "new" rules didn't apply to him personally...He was some how "grandfathered"...The "natural-rivers-act" designation didn't apply to him and he could do what he damn well pleased on his property whether or not it fell within the zone or not...He would rail at me how "those guys", by which he meant the Angler's of the Au Sable (I was wearing the club cap at the time)had ruined the river and it's never been the same since the no-kill went through...You know "Back in the good old days etc"...He would walk down the middle of the river, the "flies-only no-kill" section of the river with a spinning reel with some big old weighted jig attached at the end that he had attached some feathers to and called it a fly! If you said anything to him he would feign being deaf.

I know this isn't a "good" sentiment, but I haven't seen the old-fart in years and maybe if he has passed, wherever he ended up, I hope that the powers that be there have refused to let him fish...One of these days, in my fishing novel, you will be able to read about the morning he shot at me with a small pistol from his dock...I'm pretty sure that was when my beard started to go gray!

Matt...There are times, more often than not, that I'm not too fond of our fellow humans and their selfish ways...Thankfully I haven't gone "postal" or anything :).

Hang in there! Carpe Diem, brother! I think you PA Boys need to plan an en masse, uptream of the access point, visit to the pool in front of their club...Make sure you find a local supporting news guy to film it...Give him a pair of waders...Take those water proof chairs and have a good old fashioned sit down...Bring the rods, some refreshments, and pick a day when you know the "clients" are out there having their faked-up dream experience over hand fed stockies. It's a wonder they don't have lackeys upstream somewhere chumming the waters with fish pellets and the fly of the day!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Shawnny3September 3rd, 2010, 12:04 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
We should have our next Troutnut gathering on Donny B's water on the J.

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
SlateDrake9September 3rd, 2010, 12:22 pm
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
On two seperate occasions I've questioned TU when they've sent me a request to renew my membership. I've directly asked them why they support individuals who support the privitization of public waters, such as the Becks obviously do with their ties to DB and Spring Ridge. I have yet to get a response from TU.

Tuna,

What you experienced is disorderly conduct at the minimum and terroristic threats (if not more at the max) by PA law from the "guide" you encountered. Should have called PSP and filed charges. Sadly, that's how these things get resolved these days.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
MartinlfSeptember 3rd, 2010, 12:40 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3016
I believe Slate Drake has it right. If folks are harassed by Beaver's goons, I hope they will immediately call the State Police if they have a cell, and let the bullies know they can't get away with it. Makes my blood boil just to hear about this B.S. I'll be wading into the Espy water as soon as I can get around to it. If I'm harassed, I'll calmly and politely say, "Sir, you are breaking the law. I am calling the State Police right now. Perhaps you should contact your lawyer; you're going to need one."
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
TunaSeptember 3rd, 2010, 12:50 pm
Altoona, PA

Posts: 16
I thought about calling the Police on my cell, which is a Verizon phone, and service comes and goes, mostly goes. I might try to convince the local WCO, Waterways Conservation Officer, to come fishing with me sometime in plainclothes and see how things really are there. So many people have fought tooth and nail to keep this river open to the public and people still get harassed quite often. I didn't leave that day either I just walked away a kept on keepin' on, right in front of the guide!

PS- I might catch hell for this, but the cameras they use to "patrol" the area are fakes! They have a small solar powered light going to them, and have used no electricity for over 3 years now. I happen to know the meter reader in the area.
Reel men play with their flies.
MartinlfSeptember 4th, 2010, 9:50 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3016
Yeah, ignoring them and fishing right in front of them isn't a bad idea either.

So all that energy we use flippen' them the bird electronically has been wasted? :)

I doubt anyone will give you hell over mentioning the cameras unless Don and his goons get on this site. And if they do, guess who will catch hell?
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
GONZOSeptember 4th, 2010, 10:33 am
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
So all that energy we use flippen' them the bird electronically has been wasted? :)


Yeah, that's a shame, but I'm not surprised that the cameras are just another part of a continuing campaign of bluff and intimidation intended to convince public water anglers that the club "owns" that water in spite of court rulings to the contrary.
Shawnny3September 4th, 2010, 1:35 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
Fake conservation, fake business fronts, fake cameras... I guess it's no wonder the fish are fake, too.

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
JADSeptember 6th, 2010, 5:33 am
Alexandria Pa

Posts: 362
I got to get in this now.(Yeah, ignoring them and fishing right in front of them isn't a bad idea either.)
A couple years ago I had cut logs thrown at Me and my fishing buddy while we were fishing Spring Ridge waters uninvited. We had words with the aholes and I politely ask the young man if he would like to meet me in the water,he declined. At other times I have talked to their guides and they were polite . If I had three wishes one would be---you know the answer.

Best
JAD


They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cocks wattles, and which in colour are like wax.
Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
AdirmanSeptember 6th, 2010, 6:14 am
Monticello, NY

Posts: 490
It's too bad you guys have to constantly deal w/ all that crap and i'm sorry to hear it. Personally, I wouldn't even fish there if its gonna be that much of a hassle; fishing 's supposed to be relaxing and enjoyable, not confrontational and stressful.Oh well, i guess you could say those guys would get their way though in the end if everyone did that so no easy answers. Good luck to you and hopefully the harassment ends someday.
TroutBumsOctober 9th, 2014, 1:53 pm
Cincinnati, OH

Posts: 13
OK, no specific information about where to fish on the Little J, but how about broad directions as to where to start. Say something like, "jump in the water near State College or Lewistown. Kiss and tell is out, but how about Kiss and you should have been there! Central PA covers a lot of ground like the Little J does. Limestone alone makes me want to try. I am use to the Holston River in TN...Lots of choices near Bristol, TN
Ted Holcomb
http://TroutBumOutfitters.com
Contact@TroutBumOutfitters.com
GutcutterOctober 9th, 2014, 5:08 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
Heading north, go across the Little Juniata River in the town of Spruce Creek. Make a right at the end of the bridge where the sign says "Homewaters" and drive up the gravel lane that used to be the Espy Farm Road.
Ignor all of the "Private Property", "No Trespassing" and "Club Member Parking Only" signs.
Pass the statue of Ernie and head into the water.
Use a size 12 pellet fly dead drifted over the schools of 20-22 inch fish.
Have fun.
Tell them that Donny sent you.
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
TroutBumsOctober 11th, 2014, 8:30 pm
Cincinnati, OH

Posts: 13
Gutcutter, Exactly what I was looking for. I live in Cincinnati, so it is about a 6 hour drive. Guess I will need to go for a couple of days. ;).
Based on your comments, this area must be pretty hot. I have Facebook page, Fly Fishing Bums, and will post what I catch. If you have a favorite picture, send it to me to post. I appreciate your time and help.
Ted Holcomb
http://TroutBumOutfitters.com
Contact@TroutBumOutfitters.com
MartinlfOctober 13th, 2014, 12:06 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3016
TroutBums: Check your dictionary for the meaning of irony.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
CrepuscularOctober 16th, 2014, 8:15 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
TroutBums: Check your dictionary for the meaning of irony.


:)
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