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> > UV Materials and if they really help ?, Page 5

PlanettroutOctober 13th, 2014, 12:50 pm
Los Angeles, CA / Pullman, WA

Posts: 53
UV materials...not sure where to buy flies with UV material... don't recall any of the stores (Orvis, fly shops etc) setting aside flies . I would like to try one, but don't know where to find them ... any thoughts? If the trout are saying yes, so will I. :)


Ted,

Spirit River offers a number of UV2 patterns, in bulk, to dealers :


https://spiritriver.com/flies/uv2-flies


Nice photo of the Upper Owens River on yer' site... :)


PT/TB
Daughter to Father: "How many arms do you have, how many fly rods do you need?"

http://planettrout.wordpress.com/
DanielDHolmDecember 5th, 2014, 5:53 am
Posts: 2Hi there. It seems to me that there is great confusion on the terms Uv and fluorescence.
I have made the following video about what is what and how it works.




Just Copy/past the link to your browser it will be worth it ;)
PaulRobertsDecember 6th, 2014, 10:08 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Hi Daniel, nicely done video.

As to UV and trout vision, I'm not equipped to talk about it, yet. I'm not convinced that there's enough work done to really understand the periodicity or function of UV sensitivity in adult trout yet.

I am well aware that there is some excitement surrounding UV materials for trout flies but whether that excitement is being emphasized by exclamation points from anglers or dollar signs from entrepreneurs I don't know. Color is a particularly tough nut to crack from the anglers perspective, angling being a poor sampling technique in general.

There are also some entrepreneurs marketing UV materials in the bass fishing world too, even though bass have not been shown to possess UV sensitivity as yet, (much less it's possible periodicity and function). One company's video demonstration "proving" that bass can see UV is the shining of a "UV flashlight" beam into an aquarium containing of bass, and the bass chase the light's motion. But, as you demonstrate in your video, the bass are likely responding to the visible light bleed that exists in "corner store" UV flashlights.

Which reminds me of a story, told by Bill McFarland during a lecture on the evolution of color vision in fish: A headstrong graduate student prematurely purchased some colored filters for the projection system they were using to emit various wavelengths of light to fish. It had never occurred to her that the filters she chose might look ďredĒ or ďblueĒ to us, but not be accurate enough to collect only the proper wavelengths of interest. Her results were worthless.


MartinlfDecember 7th, 2014, 2:33 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2925
but whether that excitement is being emphasized by exclamation points from anglers or dollar signs from entrepreneurs I don't know.


I'll second Paul's observation, though I've been experimenting with both the UV2 materials and some fluorescent materials, and like the results so far. However there is no way as far as I can tell to know for sure whether or not they actually made a difference.

It appears that trout take a fly for many different reasons, sometimes because it seems to match something they have been eating, sometimes just sampling because it might be food, and for other reasons, such as defending territory, or striking in a kill impulse.

And many tiers choose materials for many different reasons. Some like all natural materials, others prefer synthetics. Some want realistic flies, others prefer impressionistic, and many don't care as long as they catch fish. I've long since accepted that some of what I do when tying some of my flies is more for me than for the trout. But as long as I'm having fun and the trout are responding, it's all good.

I'd love to see some well-designed scientific studies on trout responses to both UV materials and fluorescent materials. However, I can't imagine who would fund them.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
PaulRobertsDecember 7th, 2014, 8:23 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
I'll second Paul's observation, though I've been experimenting with both the UV2 materials and some fluorescent materials, and like the results so far. However there is no way as far as I can tell to know for sure whether or not they actually made a difference.

It appears that trout take a fly for many different reasons, sometimes because it seems to match something they have been eating, sometimes just sampling because it might be food, and for other reasons, such as defending territory, or striking in a kill impulse.

And many tiers choose materials for many different reasons. Some like all natural materials, others prefer synthetics. Some want realistic flies, others prefer impressionistic, and many don't care as long as they catch fish. I've long since accepted that some of what I do when tying some of my flies is more for me than for the trout. But as long as I'm having fun and the trout are responding, it's all good.

I'd love to see some well-designed scientific studies on trout responses to both UV materials and fluorescent materials. However, I can't imagine who would fund them.

In general, Iím a stiff skeptic when it comes to color. Almost a stick in the mud. This isnít to be a jerk, but, as a predator, Iím a bit of a control freak. Iím sensitive to falling for ďsuperstitionĒ. Iíve fished a long time (and done research) and seen so many theories crumble Ėin angling, especially ones surrounding color. Iíve even collected stories and anecdotes that expose such foolery. Letís just say, I donít believe everything I believe. Thus, I donít believe everything others say they believe. Solid evidence is tough to come by, subject to interpretation and speculation.

This doesnít mean Iím closed to UV having a potential role in trout vision. Visibility is an important factor and thatís where the majority of the magic lies in fluorescents, I think. UV may play a role there, at certain times. Reed suggests that there are search image possibilities too. Itís a good theory, and one far from unprecedented in insectivores (and frugivores).

Likely the interactions between UV, materials, and trout vision will need to pieced together from research for other purposes. Just like we've done for other colors for a long time now. And look where it's got us. :) In the fishing world, color theories, like moon phase theories, abound, and abound in stunning contradiction. Human's have been dubbed -from other research fields- "belief machines". True understanding takes open-mindedness, training, and discipline. Otherwise, we're left with superstition, which has served admirably across evolutionary time, so far. Enough to catch plenty of fish. :)
EntomanDecember 8th, 2014, 2:33 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Frustrating!!!

Again for the umpteenth time in this thread... The materials marketed as "UV" have nothing to do with alleged salmonid UV vision. These are fluorescent materials that absorb UV to emit in the blue spectrum even though the base color may be different, like red for example. An interesting trait to be sure, but still just fluorescence. While trouts ability to see in UV and the significance of this to feeding behavior is worth discussing, confusing posts lacking a clear understanding of what's being discussed are...

IF visible (to the fish) UV is truly a trigger the trout are looking for, these are the last materials one would use as they are not reflecting any UV! It's being absorbed and converted for lack of a better word to visible light.

Materials that reflect only UV will appear black to us, not blue. Materials that do reflect varying amounts of UV may prove useful, but they won't have to glow blue... The originator of this thread has done some interesting work in this area and I hope that he revisits to help clear up the confusion. I don't blaim Trounut posters for being misled, but I am a little miffed at those mislabeling and hyping to sell stuff.

Not in my usual diplomatic mood tonight. :)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularDecember 8th, 2014, 8:02 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Frustrating!!!

Again for the umpteenth time in this thread...


I was waiting for this...hehe
OldredbarnDecember 8th, 2014, 3:18 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
In general, Iím a stiff skeptic when it comes to color. Almost a stick in the mud. This isnít to be a jerk, but, as a predator, Iím a bit of a control freak. Iím sensitive to falling for ďsuperstitionĒ. Iíve fished a long time (and done research) and seen so many theories crumble Ėin angling, especially ones surrounding color. Iíve even collected stories and anecdotes that expose such foolery. Letís just say, I donít believe everything I believe. Thus, I donít believe everything others say they believe. Solid evidence is tough to come by, subject to interpretation and speculation.


Nicely put Paul. What was it they said about the emperor's clothing?

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
DanielDHolmDecember 9th, 2014, 2:35 am
Posts: 2Thank you Poul
I know that nothing is curtain regarding fish vision.
I am just saying that when something sound too good to be true, is invisible, and cost twice the amount of all other regular stuff, I get suspicious. If it cost the same, I say go for it, it can at worst it donít have any effect ;)

WbranchDecember 9th, 2014, 6:21 am
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Wow, five pages of posts on a material that I've only heard of this year for the first time and have no interest in adding to my collection of fly tying material.

We fly tiers are all so very fortunate for all the new materials that have found there way from other commercial sectors to be used for fly tying. I think we already have many advantages in our flies that were unheard of twenty-five years ago. How easy do we have to make it for ourselves? Let's give the trout a break and utilize the skills we develop with the materials we have now rather than developing more materials to make it even easier to catch a trout.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
OldredbarnDecember 9th, 2014, 4:58 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Let's give the trout a break and utilize the skills we develop with the materials we have now rather than developing more materials to make it even easier to catch a trout.


Wow! Matt. How well put?!

Really. What is it we are trying to do here? Learn to cast for christsakes! Learn some skills.

Thanks!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
WbranchDecember 9th, 2014, 8:36 pm
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2506
Learn to cast for christsakes! Learn some skills.


Yes, learn effective line management skills, learn what a slack line cast is and how to perform it and lengthen your float with it. With a little wiggle here and another wiggle there I can get a 30' drag free float. Learn how to hit a target within 2" to the left or right of a rise form on the first cast. Stop false casting endlessly. Put the damn fly on the water. When I see guys false casting endlessly and barely lengthening their cast I want to shout at them - "throw the freaking cast already".

Sometimes I do false cast repeatedly but it is not to dry the fly or to lengthen the cast. If I see a fish rise I try and see what the frequency of the riseform is and then false cast until I have figured it is about time for the fish to rise again. Unless a trout is suspended just an inch or two below the surface as soon as he rises up from the depths he drops down again almost immediately. So if you happen to drop your fly as he is going back down 3' - 4' he isn't going to see the fly.

Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
PaulRobertsDecember 9th, 2014, 9:13 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Frustrating!!!

Again for the umpteenth time in this thread... The materials marketed as "UV" have nothing to do with alleged salmonid UV vision. These are fluorescent materials that absorb UV to emit in the blue spectrum even though the base color may be different, like red for example. An interesting trait to be sure, but still just fluorescence. While trouts ability to see in UV and the significance of this to feeding behavior is worth discussing, confusing posts lacking a clear understanding of what's being discussed are...

IF visible (to the fish) UV is truly a trigger the trout are looking for, these are the last materials one would use as they are not reflecting any UV! It's being absorbed and converted for lack of a better word to visible light.

Materials that reflect only UV will appear black to us, not blue. Materials that do reflect varying amounts of UV may prove useful, but they won't have to glow blue... The originator of this thread has done some interesting work in this area and I hope that he revisits to help clear up the confusion. I don't blaim Trounut posters for being misled, but I am a little miffed at those mislabeling and hyping to sell stuff.

Not in my usual diplomatic mood tonight. :)

Oh yeah! :) I'm interested in trout (and bass) visual capabilities, so that's where I'm focused. Apologies for perpetuating this UV materials myth.
LastchanceDecember 10th, 2014, 2:11 pm
Portage, PA

Posts: 437
I use UV material to tie my sulfurs.
MartinlfMarch 15th, 2015, 10:49 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 2925
Bumping this one up for Bob. We've been discussing related topics via PM's and thought this would supplement the discussion.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
OvermywaderMarch 16th, 2015, 1:28 pm
Posts: 31Wow, this thread is back again.
As I've said often, we are always tying with UV-reflective material, because everything reflects at least some tiny percentage of available UV light. Iridescent materials, e.g., peacock herl, don't reflect much (nor are they iridescent under water). Some fluorescent materials also are highly UV reflective; some aren't.

A recent study showed how important UV-reflective markings can be to trout. The study used three-spined sticklebacks - Gasterosteus aculeatus - as a prey species. They determined that the stickleback 'minnows' were attacked more often by their predator if the natural UV-markings of the sticklebacks were visible. The predators were yearling brown trout, 7-9" in length. A fascinating study. see http://www.actazool.org/temp/%7B8FAC0D77-C93C-4CF9-94DF-757BF3A0F365%7D.pdf

In summary, "The difference in attack probability corresponded to the difference in chromatic contrasts between sticklebacks and the experimental background calculated for both the UV+ and UV- conditions in a physiological model of trout colour vision. UV reflections seem to be costly by enhancing the risk of predation due to an increased conspicuousness of prey. This is the first study in a vertebrate, to our knowledge, demonstrating direct predation risk due to UV wavelengths."

BTW, I wrote a short article on UV vision in trout, see http://www.overmywaders.com/cblog/index.php?/archives/112-Ultraviolet-Vision-in-Trout.html
Regards,
Reed

Overmywaders
PaulRobertsMarch 16th, 2015, 8:08 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776
Thanks for that Reed. The link fails but one is able to view the cache.

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