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> > UV Materials and if they really help ?, Page 3

CrepuscularFebruary 19th, 2014, 11:21 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Eric -

While seemingly out in left field from the current direction of the thread, Bruce just shifted gears back to another underlying theme started by Spence at the beginning. Scroll back and read those comments and Bruce's will make sense. Kinda sorta:) lol


:)
OldredbarnFebruary 20th, 2014, 12:24 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
If trout can indeed see in the uv, what are they looking at?


"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if I was looking back at her. "

They see a bunch of strangely clad dudes waving a long stick in the air. :)
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
EntomanFebruary 20th, 2014, 3:07 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
I think the fish see what they want to see. They readily took every hopper that had been run through with a section of 20lb. mono; plenty sticking out of each side. An interesting experiment, I thought.

I agree, Tim. Good thing that trout look for positives and seem to ignore the negatives (most of the time). Otherwise our imitations with long barbed stingers, way too many legs and a single antennae that stretches to infinity would doom our efforts.;)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
TNEALFebruary 20th, 2014, 8:09 am
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN

Posts: 276
Makes sense. I keep hearing that we need to have leader material that trout can't see. I remember a kid who used to use nothing but black braided nylon and caught many trout. I like your point about long barbed stingers; if the hook isn't visible, what is? Ever had trout rise to the knots in your leader? Each has to come to his own conclusions; my point is make sure they are your own.
TNEALFebruary 20th, 2014, 8:13 am
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN

Posts: 276
Re Spence's uncle and his glob of worms.... if the geneticists could only breed "garden hackle" smell into our capes and saddles.....
OldredbarnFebruary 20th, 2014, 10:15 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN

Posts: 145 Re Spence's uncle and his glob of worms.... if the geneticists could only breed "garden hackle" smell into our capes and saddles.....


:) Don't give them Power-bait boys any ideas! :)


Each has to come to his own conclusions; my point is make sure they are your own.


Well put Tim...

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Kschaefer3February 20th, 2014, 12:20 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
...or when it seems that things are going the way of the bass whackers in our sport...Old flies only sections of streams seem almost pointless when you see what anglers are tossing there these days. Might as well be throwing Mepps spinners.



You must hate me! Hooks on many modern streamers exceed the size of the mepps I have seen used for trout. I think things are going the way of bass whackers because many have realized trout aren't all that different from bass...


One day we will be able to insert in our flies little transmitters that will over power those little trout brains and they will impale themselves on them...Won't be able to resist...Literally.


I hope it never comes to this. What fun would it be if it weren't a challenge?
EntomanFebruary 20th, 2014, 2:30 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
No hate here, Kyle. Only love allowed.;)
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Kschaefer3February 20th, 2014, 3:33 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
No hate here, Kyle. Only love allowed.;)

Publicly, at least. :) Spence will go home tonight, don his tweed, re-read modern dry fly code 20 times and sacrifice a dozen freshly tied thorax duns to Mr. Marinaro as penance for my sins against tradition. All the while wondering what the hell happened to today's youth...

GutcutterFebruary 20th, 2014, 3:49 pm
Pennsylvania

Posts: 470
Ok so it's Spence's fault. ;)

Isn't it always?

My two front teeth are capped...

I'm sorry about that, buddy. I couldn't resist. Your head was down.

My brain is clogged with someone else's traditions

Yes, and we PA boys want you to give them back.

If trout can indeed see in the uv, what are they looking at?

Hawryshyn, Haimberger and Deutschlander's charts and graphs, of course.

Those that can, do.
Those that can't, do research.
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.

-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
CrepuscularFebruary 20th, 2014, 4:00 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
Ok so it's Spence's fault. ;)

Isn't it always?

My two front teeth are capped...

I'm sorry about that, buddy. I couldn't resist. Your head was down.

My brain is clogged with someone else's traditions

Yes, and we PA boys want you to give them back.

If trout can indeed see in the uv, what are they looking at?

Hawryshyn, Haimberger and Deutschlander's charts and graphs, of course.

Those that can, do.
Those that can't, do research.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thank you Antonio.
OldredbarnFebruary 20th, 2014, 6:59 pm
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
Kyle...You have nothing to fear from me...:) Now Tony & Eric I'd keep an eye out for. ;)

For the record, it's not like I've never tossed a streamer, a nymph (beaded or otherwise), or even an egg fly...As a youngster I even dunked more worms than those fish could eat. I did do my penance last April when I visited the LeTort, Big Spring, etc...

I'm just stirring the pot...

A very good friend of mine once told me that he just wants to approach the trout on his own terms, fish his own way, and damn the crowd...I think everyone agrees with this. Who am I to try and tell someone else how they should fish?

I'm just furthering the dialectic and trying to stay away from Tony so I don't lose any more teeth. ;)

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Jmd123February 20th, 2014, 7:12 pm
Oscoda, MI

Posts: 2385
"Those that can, do.
Those that can't, do research."

Tony, I thought it was "Those who can't do, teach..."

Then again, I don't like the implications either way...being a college teacher myself, that is...

Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Kschaefer3February 20th, 2014, 8:08 pm
St. Paul, MN

Posts: 376
Kyle...You have nothing to fear from me...:) Now Tony & Eric I'd keep an eye out for. ;)

For the record, it's not like I've never tossed a streamer, a nymph (beaded or otherwise), or even an egg fly...As a youngster I even dunked more worms than those fish could eat. I did do my penance last April when I visited the LeTort, Big Spring, etc...

I'm just stirring the pot...

A very good friend of mine once told me that he just wants to approach the trout on his own terms, fish his own way, and damn the crowd...I think everyone agrees with this. Who am I to try and tell someone else how they should fish?

I'm just furthering the dialectic and trying to stay away from Tony so I don't lose any more teeth. ;)

Spence


I'm just poking at you a little bit. I think it's really cool that you are as into the history of our sport as you are. I hope to spend the time to learn the history as well. It is hard impossible to appreciate where you are without knowing where you came from.

As to approaching trout your own way, I agree wholeheartedly. I also like to learn how others approach fishing as well. There is a lot of value in know what other anglers do, even more so in why they do, what they do.
CrepuscularFebruary 20th, 2014, 9:04 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 919
It is hard to appreciate where you are without knowing where you came


Not hard, impossible.
OvermywaderFebruary 21st, 2014, 5:46 pm
Posts: 31Below is the Light Cahill using the traditional dressing in reflected ultraviolet light



and here is a Siphlonorous rapidus in reflected ultraviolet wavelengths:



Obviously the UV intensity of the Cahill body is too high, but the wing looks good. Perhaps a Parachute Light Cahill with a more ginger hackle.
Regards,
Reed

Overmywaders
EntomanFebruary 21st, 2014, 8:51 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Very interesting, but I'm not sure what it means. Assuming for the sake of discussion that trout do see UV, what is the purpose of filtering for it? Are you saying trout can also filter like this to find patterns of UV hidden in the clutter of the visible spectrum? And that they also use this faculty to determine between food and fraud? If they don't have these abilities, it seems to me this is like taking photos with all but blue filtered out for discussing how humans see things and then ascribing behavioral responses to it. Again, assuming trout even see UV...
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
OvermywaderFebruary 21st, 2014, 10:16 pm
Posts: 31Well, entoman, since many of the mayflies do their mating after sunset, we don't need to worry about the color cones for long, the retina will be shifted to the use of rods. At the same time, the predominant percentage of solar and extra-solar wavelengths will be in the UV range.

So, the images above represent as accurately as possible, the percentage of UV reflected from the natural insect and an artificial fly. No "UV" materials were used. This particular pattern has been one of the most successful trout flies since its creation by Dan Cahill at the end of the nineteenth century (lots of different time periods offered from the 1880's to 1920's for the Light Cahill). The images above should be an accurate representation of what a trout sees in the low light with scotopic vision; barring any actual "color". The images might be more accurate in black and white, however, all that is important is the percentage of reflection.

Earlier in the day, the same trout, with his RGB cones, with secondary peaks in the UV, would see the above mingled with colors. It seems clear to me that trout may select their prey based upon all the colors they see. Some anglers have found that one pattern caught fish, while the same pattern tied with different, but not visibly different, material did not. A few years ago a fly fisherman who had been tying his own flies for many years complained to me that he couldn't catch trout on his new white marabous streamers. We looked at both his old and new flies in reflected UV. The new marabou had been treated with TiO2 to make it look more white in visible light. However, TiO2 absorbs UV, so his new flies were dark in the UV; his old flies, sans TiO2, were very bright.
Regards,
Reed

Overmywaders
EntomanFebruary 22nd, 2014, 12:09 am
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
Yes, I've experienced the same thing. Sometimes fish like fluorescence sometimes not. It seems to me that your filter removed the unnatural fluorescent light and only showed the lack of UV because it had been absorbed to make the former. But the fish isn't seeing your photos, he's seeing unusually bright white marabou. Even if it could notice the reduced UV, wouldn't it be mostly drowned out by the fluorescence? Regardless, it can't be denied they (photos and two marabous) all look different to the trout.

It's my understanding that the most visible color in water is at the opposite end of the color spectrum. Due to refraction in the window, insect bodies and wings really pick up the red as evening draws near (especially with red sunsets). Almost glowing in fact. By the time that is gone (relative darkness) what ambient light left is gathered very effectively by the trout's eyes to show its world fairly well, albeit largely in black & white.

BTW - How much of the UV spectrum are you converting to visible light in your photos? Is it the same as what you believe the trout are capable of seeing?
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
OldredbarnFebruary 22nd, 2014, 12:18 am
Novi, MI

Posts: 2591
http://www.overmywaders.com/extracts/flytying/herters254.jpg

Reed,

I was knocking around on your blog and ran across this on the old Herter's page there from a 1961 catalogue...Along the right side about halfway down...

"Herter's Original Radiant Color Rooster Neck Skin"..."Radiant Color is daylight fluorescent and will make your flies six to twelve times more visible in daylight as well as evening."

I guess there isn't "nothing new under the sun" or "the old shall be new again". :)

We angler's may be more vulnerable to marketing than others in the general population, being the dreamers we are.

How funny is that?

Spence

"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
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