Troutnut Forum > Specimen Discussion > Psychomyiidae

The Specimen

The Discussion

Mlajoie	March 19th, 2008, 1:37 pm
Posts: 6	This is not a Philopotamid. It is Psychomyiidae and it looks like Lype sp. but it is hard to see the sclerites on the mentum. It would be easy to ID with a close-up of the anal claws and ventral side of the head. Lype does not have long ventral teeth on the claws like Psychomyia sp.
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Mlajoie	March 31st, 2008, 11:11 am
Posts: 6	You know how sometimes you just want to unsend an email... I could be wrong on this ID. In fact, after reinspection, I'm leaning more toward Philopotamidae. Without being able to see a hatchet-shaped foretrochantin (Psychomyidae) you can't definitively ID even to family. The way the fleshy mesonotum overlaps the dark posterior margin of the pronotum, along with the apparent lack of T-shaped labrum, led me to suspect a Psychomyid (but occasionally you can see this with Philopotamids, too). The head shape also appears to be more consistent with Psychomyidae, but now I suspect that it may be the angle of the shot. You definitely can't see the venter of the anal claws clearly or a clear view of the mental schlerites, so I don't think we can be confident about labeling the genus of this photo set. Heck, the family may even be wrong. My statement that it looks like Lype wasn't based on specific diagnostic characteristics, and I didn't mean for it to be taken as a definite ID. Sorry for any confusion. Given a real specimine, the ID would be immediately obvious, but based on these photos, I'm not at all confident of the correct ID. Again, sorry for the confusion. -Matt
Creno	May 3rd, 2008, 7:02 pm
Centennial CO Posts: 34	Folks - just got back to looking through the taxonomy discussions and I don't think this is a psychomyiid. The forelegs are too long. In general all the legs are too long for psychomyiids - in particular the femur is long and appears nearly circular in cross section. They are usually much shorter and laterally compressed in the psychomyiids. But just because we know what it is not doesn't mean we know what it is. Very few of the larval polycentropid species have been associated so any guesses based on these photos are just that. I guess Nyctiophylax. That is based almost solely on what we can see of the anal leg and claw. The claw appears to be a more smoothly curved arc than any of the polycentropids I have seen. I want to thank Jason for putting up these great photos. They are a real test for all of us and our knowledge of the critters, not just a key. And on a selfish note, they are great practice for the "stump the chump" stuff I get involved in. For the readers who are going to the North American Benthological Society meeting the end of the month bring your unknown critters and stop by the Taxonomy Fair - you can find alot of chumps there who enjoy a good challenge - or just talking critters. dave
Troutnut	May 3rd, 2008, 11:33 pm
Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113	OK, then, I'm moving this one all the way up to "Trichoptera" and not giving it a family ID. Have fun at NABS. I'm not going this year, but my advisor and a couple of my labmates are.
	Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut
Creno	May 4th, 2008, 6:27 pm
Centennial CO Posts: 34	You mean you are not willing to go at least to family based on a hunch? dave
Troutnut	May 5th, 2008, 2:38 am
Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113	Half the IDs on this site are based on hunches. I just got confused after reading through this thread as to which hunch pointed where. I'll call it a Polycentropid for now if you want.
	Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut
Taxon	May 5th, 2008, 4:01 am
Mercer Island, WA Posts: 479	Hey guys- What is a Polycentropid? Do you mean Polycentropodid? Isn't that what a member of family Polycentropodidae is called?
	Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
Creno	May 7th, 2008, 7:52 pm
Centennial CO Posts: 34	Roger - thanks for catching the typo. We haven't heard back from Matt to see if we are approaching any degree of consensus on our hunches. dave

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