Troutnut Forum > Specimen Discussion > So is Ep Infrequens now known as Ep Dorothea?
The Specimen
Ephemerella dorothea (Sulphur) Mayfly Dun
View 7 Pictures
View 7 PicturesRegion: PA Limestone
Collected May 26, 2007
Added Jun 4, 2007
The Discussion
| Wbranch | February 17th, 2008, 1:57 pm | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | These mayflies look more like the Sulfurs I see on the Delaware system than the PMD's I see in Montana. The Montana mayfly has a distinct yellow leading edge to an overall light dun gray wing and the abdomen and thorax have a more light greenish/yellow cloration so how is it that Infrequens is now known as Ep Dorothea Dorothea? | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
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| Taxon | February 17th, 2008, 2:26 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | Matt- so how is it that Infrequens is now known as Ep Dorothea Dorothea? Well, that is not exactly correct. As a result of taxonomic reclassification, the species which was known as Ephemerella dorothea became subspecies E. dorothea dorothea, and both the species known as Ephemerella infrequens, and the species known as E. mollitia become subspecies E. dorothea infrequens. See below copied from Mayfly Central: Ephemerella dorothea dorothea (Needham), 1908 - Ephemerella dorothea Needham, 1908 (orig.) Ephemerella dorothea infrequens (McDunnough), 1924 - Ephemerella infrequens McDunnough, 1924 (orig.) - Ephemerella mollitia Seemann, 1927 (syn.) | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Troutnut | February 17th, 2008, 3:09 pm | |
| Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113 | What Roger said. (He sure makes things easy!) | |
| Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut | ||
| Wbranch | February 17th, 2008, 5:19 pm | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | Are there any pictures of Ephemerella dorothea infrequens on this site? Thank you for clearing up my error.  Loop Wing Sulfur Dun | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
| JAD | February 17th, 2008, 5:40 pm | |
| Butler--- Western Pa Posts: 157 | That's a different Loop wing than I ever saw WB how does it perform JAD | |
| Stupid is forever, ignorance can be fixed. | ||
| Taxon | February 17th, 2008, 5:59 pm | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | Matt-Are there any pictures of Ephemerella dorothea infrequens on this site? Probably not, as the vast majority of Jason's collecting/photographing is from the Midwest (Wisconsin) and the Northeast (New York), and Ephemerella dorothea infrequens is only present in the West. However, they are present in Alaska, so there is always hope. | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Wbranch | February 17th, 2008, 7:33 pm | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | JAD, It performs quite well when dressed as an Eastern Ep Dorothea (Sulfur)with the light yellow to light orange abdomen and thorax with a medium dun hackle and equally well when dressed as a Western Ep Infrequens (PMD) with the typical light greenish abdomen and thorax and light cream hackle. The tail fibers are soft and meant to sink. Then the fly sits more or less vertical in the water and the wing is actually what would be called a "Quigley style".  The bottom right row has a similar tie except the body is meant to replicate the nymphal shuck and instead of a "Loop" the wing is composed out of a ball of Antron yarn. | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
| Wiflyfisher | February 17th, 2008, 9:59 pm | |
| Wisconsin Posts: 206 | Last summer while out West we had a sporatic hatch of E. infrequens and all I had with me at the time were dorothea emergers. They worked fine on the big sipping rainbows. The fish were really keyed in on the emergers just underneath the film. My emerger pattern had a short, white rabbit fur wing tied wetfly style with a pale yellow body (barbless hook). I think the trout knew my pattern was a subspecie of the specie so they readily took it.the species which was known as Ephemerella dorothea became subspecies E. dorothea dorothea, So Roger, since E. dorothea dorothea is now a subspecies does that mean there is another "species" known as E. dorothea? Species: E. dorothea Subspecies: E. dorothea dorothea | |
| John S. http://www.WiFlyFisher.com | ||
| Kinzua | February 17th, 2008, 10:32 pm | |
| W. PA Posts: 10 | WB, Can you reveal the tail materials? John | |
| Taxon | February 18th, 2008, 12:55 am | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | John-So Roger, since E. dorothea dorothea is now a subspecies does that mean there is another "species" known as E. dorothea? Ephemerella dorothea dorothea and E. dorothea infrequens collectively constitute E. dorothea. Of course, this begs another question, which is, what is the fundamental difference between a species and a subspecies? Unfortunately, I have never heard (what I would consider to be) a crisp answer to that question. However, perhaps Konchu will step in at this point, and bail me out. | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Troutnut | February 18th, 2008, 1:11 am | |
| Fairbanks, AK Posts: 1113 | what is the fundamental difference between a species and a subspecies? Unfortunately, I have never heard (what I would consider to be) a crisp answer to that question. There is a pretty good answer on Wikipedia. I would imagine there's still quite a bit of subjectivity in interpreting the evidence about whether different insect variations are subspecies or not, and I would guess there are lots of species and subspecies that haven't been correctly classified just yet because people haven't had enough time to study them closely. Konchu would know way more about that I'm sure. | |
| Jason Neuswanger The Troutnut | ||
| Taxon | February 18th, 2008, 1:51 am | |
| Mercer Island, WA Posts: 478 | Thanks, Jason. That is a reasonably crisp definition. I have parsed the following from it:A subspecies is a taxonomic group less distinct than the primary stock (species) from which it originates. The characteristics attributed to subspecies are generally derived from changes that have taken place or evolved as a result of geographical distribution or isolation from the primary species or nominate subspecies, which is a subspecies indicated by the repetition of the specific name. So, when one applies the above definitions to our specific discussion, the primary stock (or species) would be Ephemerella dorothea, the nominate subspecies would E. dorothea dorothea, and the geographically isolated subspecies would be E. dorothea infrequens. Or, so it seems to me. | |
| Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Wbranch | March 11th, 2008, 9:10 pm | |
| Starlight PA Posts: 230 | Kinzua, Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. My computer was down for two weeks and then I went from AOL to Comcast and that took another week to get the installation. I use a feather from a turkey but don't know from what specific area of the bird. Maybe some one here is more familiar with turkey feathers and can chime in to tell us where it is from. I like them better than PT fibers because they are all the same length, not tapered like PT and broader. I cut out between 4 and 8 fibers, depending on the hook size, from the area above the black band. (The image file this user tried to include was not found.) (The image file this user tried to include was not found.) | |
| West Branch & main stem fly fisher for forty-two years. | ||
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