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> > Streamside Manners???

Murphlax34January 28th, 2008, 6:00 am
Posts: 5I am sure this topic has been debated on this fine web site before, but me and a fishing buddy were up at the Salmon River yesterday and saw tha there was no one fishing the Lower Fly Zone on the opposite side form the parking lot. So we head on over and start to tie up. Within five minutes this old timmer comes over and stands about 8' from my buddy and he starts to tie up,,, now keep in mind the whole stretch is wide open, no other people.. well he stays ight where he is and begins to not only to fish but with a Spey rod!!! Well my buddy says something like "dp you need to be this close" and then itmazes me what he says next.."your not from around here? are you?" Like that matters??? "we fish one rods length away if you know what you are doing",,,, I might have understood this if it was Salmon season and ther were 20 guys around,,but he had the whole river to fish and he has to pick a spot a Spey rods lenth away from somone else??? I guess this person has a very good reputation on the river,,,,but it seemed to me that he has an old attitude that he thinks he is entitled to do whatever he wants simply because he fishes the river alot... I might be wrong, but it seems to me that good manners on the river start with giving another fisherman enough room to do there own thing, this river is known for combat fishing, but when the crowds die down it's a nice place to be untill you run into a jerk like this......I haven't been fishing the river that long so if I am in the wrong I will gladly find someplace else to fish,,, where I come from we like to treat people the way we would like to be treated,, I think we learned that one in second grade...thats for letting me rant...and if Iam in the wrong please bash away.......
DanoJanuary 28th, 2008, 7:09 am
Vanderbilt, Michigan

Posts: 101
Well, Murph, in my younger days I more than likely would have tried to drive him off with numerous "errant" casts, mumbling all the while. You know, the passive-aggresive approach...I've found this doesn't work very well.

I have a very low tolerance for such boors and am inclined to be more direct like your buddy. Though, normally my first comment is usually in the form of a question like, "You must be new to fly fishing, eh?" My reply to this boors question would have been, "No, I'm not from around here; I'm from a place where good manners are taught and proper ettiquete is encouraged. Since we were here first, you're more than welcome to find another spot." His response/reaction would determine the next step.

With a more direct approach one must be prepared not to let the "confrontation" ruin the outing. So, whilst I always strive to take the high road and not lower myself to the same level as the boor, I'm not above telling someone they're an ass, wish them good luck, and move on....

Luckily, I've not had to deal with such problems since I moved out here...

Dano


Eventually, all things merge into one...and a river runs through it.
MtskibumJanuary 28th, 2008, 7:47 am
Montana

Posts: 26
You handled that situation better than i would have. Thankfully i get to fish in spots where i never see another fisherman, because i hate people.

CaseyPJanuary 28th, 2008, 8:12 am
Arlington, VA/ Mercersburg, PA

Posts: 653
years ago i was bemoaning the behavior of drivers in my city. my audience was a delightfully wise church-going friend. she told me of a bumper sticker she'd seen that made the whole thing more bearable: "Hurry on, Brother...Hell's only half full..."

keeping such folk out of your head helps make the day go better. my latest mantra is, "I am reallyglad I don't live the life that made you such a *&$#@#$. It must be awful."
"You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra
Murphlax34January 28th, 2008, 10:22 am
Posts: 5My Buddy actualy looked this guy up, becuase he let us know who he was (he seemed to think that would matter)and I guess he teaches fly fishing to kids!!!! I wonder if he included ettiquet in his lessons?? doubtful,,oh well thanks for the feedback,,,I would just love to hear his rationale,,This horse has been whuped pretty good..thats all form me.....Murph
SlateDrake9January 28th, 2008, 2:52 pm
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
Sounds like most of my days fishing the Salmon River. For a long time I thought I was an A-hole magnet, then I realized that places like that just have a higher A-hole to nice person ratio.

It sounds like what you are talking about is what my buddy and I call the crowds draw idiots syndrome. We've noticed while both fishing and hunting that when an idiot sees others fishing or hunting an area they assume that the people fishing or hunting there already must know something and be doing great, so they feel they need to join in too. This seems to be a fact in Pennsylvania. We've tested it during the peak of trout season. A bunch of us, I think 5 or 6, got together and fished a hole in a local stream that is known to not hold any fish, but is highly visable from the road. Well, within a an hour, there were 13 people fishing at one time. I'm sure our experiment can be replicated if you are ever really bored.

Have a nice day.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Shawnny3January 28th, 2008, 4:20 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
Nice story, Slate. When my brother and I used to fish for salmon and browns in Cayuga Lake, we'd have a few good laughs about this same phenomenon. With each fish you caught, the guys around you would creep a few feet closer. At some point one of us would look at the other with a smile and mutter, "...because there aren't any fish anywhere else in the lake."

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
SlateDrake9January 28th, 2008, 5:08 pm
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
Shawnny,

We didn't even catch any fish that day in that spot. It was done purely as an experiment in that spot because "everyone" knows they just aren't there to catch. Idiots see a crowd and must believe that the fishing or hunting is great. It would probably be a great social science study for some grad student.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
CaseyPJanuary 28th, 2008, 5:57 pm
Arlington, VA/ Mercersburg, PA

Posts: 653
happens on salt water too. on a day that was turning out badly, our guide lightened the mood by saying, "Okay, cast like crazy." we did, and the three boats that had been hanging around suddenly came closer. when they were all around us nicely, he called our lines in and we motored away. the looks on the faces were priceless!
"You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra
SmallstreamJanuary 28th, 2008, 6:03 pm
State College, PA

Posts: 103
.."your not from around here? are you?" and "we fish one rods length away if you know what you are doing"

Thats hilarious, I would have gotten as close to him as possible and told him "dont worry, I know what I am doing". To me fishing that close to someone kind of makes it suck, I dont know how people can enjoy being on the stream when it is crowded like during steelhead and salmon season.
TroutnutJanuary 28th, 2008, 6:25 pm
Administrator
Bellevue, WA

Posts: 2723
If you want to see good streamside manners, the Salmon River is one of the last places in the world to go!

What this guy did was certainly out of line, but that's par for the course in Pulaski.
Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D.
Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
SlateDrake9January 29th, 2008, 5:26 am
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
The "you're not from around here" comment is something I make on my home waters many times a year to folks, but it is because they are or are going to be too close. Local etiquette in my neck of the woods is that you don't fish close enough to someone that you can cast to the same fish.


I talked to a guy years ago on a stream in SW Pennsylvania that had a great idea that I've been thinking about doing for a while now, but haven't yet. He had "business cards" printed (actually no business listed on them) with stream etiquette tips. He then attachd a fly and would leave them on the windshields of the cars parked in the same place he was parked along the stream when he was leaving. I always thought that was a great, non-combative approach to educating people about how to act on the stream. It probably costs a bit though. Maybe a good investment for a FFF or TU chapter to take on?
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Murphlax34January 29th, 2008, 7:33 am
Posts: 5What is the definition of "being from around here" is it 25 miles? 50 miles??? and why in the hell does that matter??? the world aint all that big!!! and though I truly appreciate your sentiment and point of view,, my point has a lot to do with people feeling entitled to a stream becuase they fish it often or live close by,, which I feel is crazy.....I met many more really decent guys on the stream... Unfortunetley the jerks are the ones that stick out,, I met a great dude from PA in the fall he even shared two of his porters w/ me which as a big porter fan was AWESOME!!!!I also met a couple of guys this past weekend and one of them caught a dead Salmon, it was funny he fished almost as bad as I do!!!!good guys nice converation about summer fishing the SR which I think i'll convert to...becuase " I AM FROM AROUND THERE" Murph....P.S.In my humble oppinion we are all entitled and have the duty to preach good stream etiquet no matter what piece of water we are on, and just becuase "t was done that way in the past" doesn't make it right.....
SlateDrake9January 29th, 2008, 3:56 pm
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
What is the definition of "being from around here" is it 25 miles? 50 miles??? and why in the hell does that matter???

I'm not sure about exact distances, but I think in many cases it matters a lot. If you generally fish in a crowded urban/suburban area you just plain do some things different than you do in an isolated area, especially distance between fishermen. I call it "Local Etiquette." Examples would be the run at Boiling Springs or any of the lake Erie tribs in steelhead season. What is considered enough room between fishermen or too many fishermen in a particular hole is much, much different on those waters than fishing in many other places. If you are use to fishing those areas and not familiar with how it's done in other areas, you are probably going to irritate some folks beside you. The old saying, "When in Rome, do what the Romans do" is the best advice I can give anyone. If you are not certain, ask. I've never seen anyone ask questions about "local etiquette" get anything but respect from the people around them, but the idiots who just do whatever the hell they want to usually cause problems for themselves and everyone around them.

Overall, it seems like you ran into an idiot on the SR, which is par for that course. I think his idea is probably (sadly) viable during the peak of salmon season, but by this time of year the fish are spread out and so should be the fishermen. Typically the "locals" are the ones complaining because the "outsider" is fishing too close, not the other way around.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
DanoJanuary 29th, 2008, 7:55 pm
Vanderbilt, Michigan

Posts: 101
B.J.

In my mind "etiquette" is universal, not local. Bear in mind, I'm "auld school" and proper etiquette on crowded waters dictated that one does not "sit" on a hole and allow others to "fish through" as it were. I've fished many times under these types of conditions and have witnessed where it works very well; folks actually rotating through a run and/or hole.

Alas, this is now the 21st century where boorish behavior seems to be the norm rather than the exception, regardless of what environment one finds themselves in....

Dano


Eventually, all things merge into one...and a river runs through it.
FalsiflyJanuary 29th, 2008, 10:11 pm
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 660


We each have an area of comfort surrounding us which expands or contracts based on the perception of threat to our comfort zone. The size of that comfort zone is determined by many factors including time, place, environment, tolerance, upbringing, education, mental attitude, etc. When that comfort zone, or ones space, is encroached upon it is dealt with either confrontation (argument) or distance (move on). When we as a group endeavor to pursue a common interest (fishing) we often find that our individual comfort zones clash. With more people fishing and less water to fish confrontation tends to escalate. In an attempt to appease these differences we adopt a code of etiquette. However no formal code has been presented, let alone adopted, and how could it? We look to each other to form an etiquette of common sense knowing full well the fallacies given the number of variables. Each of us adopts an individual etiquette and each of us has the option to confront the situation as we see fit. All within reason I hope. And that is the way it should be.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
MtskibumJanuary 30th, 2008, 12:50 am
Montana

Posts: 26
I answered poorly, i didnt mean what i typed.

In the 1 hole i ever fish that i have ocasionaly share, i havent mind when someone came up. However i have never moved in on anyone else. I try to get there at times no one else is fishing it.


I answered how i did, because i was pissed off about something else, blocking off state land, there are these 2 blocks of state land that are blocked in by private ownership. I walked a mile and a half deep into a third state block that is connected to a road and is seperated only by 1 strip of land dividided between 3 landowners, from these other 2 sections. And all 3 had it posted, i walked my butt off on sunday probably putting in 6 miles of effort wasted because it wasnt really a trail, and i got skunked in the little fishing i did when the 30 mph gusts dropped down in the teens.

Although i liked the fishing spot, i think when its not half frozen over could be alot of fun.

I then went to the other side of the 2 state lots after i was done fishing, and 2 Landowners didnt have their land posted, however no houses out here. Just ag lots, but the lot that is closer the spot i want to get to has around 20 horses. And passing threw a lot of horses is impossable, the second you step within 5 feet of the barbwire and they could be a mile away they start closing. The other lot has cattle, i can sneak around these not so smart critters. Just means lots of walking
And a couple of my buddies are lazy, so its tough to get them to hike in 4-5 miles on a weekend, even though this spot looks its 20 minutes from town.
Oh and the one landowner just has his land mismarked, but i deal with land legal issues as a profesion, and that property out online, its currently in proccess of being marketed by someone who lives out of state to someone else who lives out of state. And they just happened to have there land mismarked. So when that gets sold to the next guy they probably will post it up.
IrishanglerFebruary 7th, 2008, 5:02 pm
Posts: 12This past Tuesday, here in SW VA, was one of those rare February days when it was nearly 70 degrees. I work in one of the larger cities in the region that has a pretty nice river running through it and offers some decent trout fishing along a section designated for artificial lures and catch and release. This section is routinely maintained and cleaned by the local TU chapter and the area Orvis store does some guiding here.
I was able to knock off from work a little early and was meeting a fishing buddy for an hour or two of fly fishing. Needless to say, this idea was not unique to me. The stream was a little crowded but I saw a spot at the head of a run. A fellow fly fisher was working the tail end, about 25-yds downstream, and I asked if he minded me working the upper end. "No problem. Be my guest." I thanked him and began fishing. In the meantime two other guys showed up and started gearing up with spinning rods. I was lucky enough to have two nice rainbows take my trusty woolly bugger. This was not lost on the two guys. They immediately waded into the slot between me and the downstream fly fisher. They didn't care where they cast their spinners. In short time they thoroughly frustrated the other fly fisherman to the point where he packed it in. I don't give up that easily.
Not bragging, but I need to qualify a few things. First, I'm 6-ft 5-in and weigh 245-lbs. During a great deal of my misspent youth I looked at bar fights as a hobby. I've been a bouncer at some rowdy rock-n-roll biker-type bars and taken part in a couple of "Tough Man" contests. I've won some, lost some, but enjoyed all of 'em. However, marriage, great kids and a grown-up job have done wonderful things to calm me down. But, I can still dial up an ass-whippin' when necessary. It almost came to this that afternoon.
It wasn't long before spin fisher #1 cast over my line. I politely told him that he might not have noticed that he had cast over my drift. His reply, "You fly fishermen think you own this river!" I simply shrugged this off. It wasn't long before he did this again. I felt his lure snag my line. He obviously felt this and thought it was a fish. He did his best Roland Martin largemouth bass hookset, minus the "Whoa Son!", and yanked his lure, and my leader, tippet and woolly bugger, completely out of the water. He offered no apology and started yanking my line from his lure. This did it for me. I calmly told him that if he broke my line I was going to throw his ass in the water. I offered him the option to upgrade to a complete and total ass-kickin' to go if so desired. My buddy had arrived by this time and offered his reassurance to spin fisher #1 that this was a very likely ending. Spin fisher #1 mumbled something to spin fisher #2 and they promptly left.
I regret to say that I truly hated to see them go intact and unharmed. Maybe I handled this totally wrong, but it sure felt good at the time. My buddy and I were able to fish the last hour hassle-free. I didn't catch any more fish but enjoyed watching my friend reel in two.

Shawnny3February 7th, 2008, 6:01 pm
Moderator
Pleasant Gap, PA

Posts: 1197
Nice story, Irish - I can't help but draw a bit of vicarious satisfaction from it. There are many times I wish I was 6'5", 245. Usually I just act like it. Fortunately I haven't run into anyone who's put me in my place. I enjoy a good scrap myself, but a little humility would do me and my mouth some good. Anyway, I personally like the way you handled things. You can fish with me anytime.

-Shawn
Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis
www.davisflydesigns.com
MartinlfFebruary 7th, 2008, 6:18 pm
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3161
Irish, in my more mellow days I'm now pretty much a pacifist, and don't think much is advanced by violence in cases where reason can be employed. But then again, there are those other cases . . . you showed admirable restraint, and only when pushed beyond any reasonable limit laid it on the line. And I must admit that despite my basic belief in letting cool heads prevail and using words to clarify misunderstandings, there are times that I think a good old fashioned stompin' would do some people a world of good, especially if delivered by a patient man. Great story.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
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